The Last of Us - Interview with Eben Bolter

0:13 Hey, I'm Derek. And I'm Noah. And you're listening to a bite of where we take our current favorite pop, culture, Obsession, and enjoy one nibble at a time. Oh do we have a special episode for you today? This isn't a nibble. This is a meal. This is a full. Course, everything you possibly could know about episodes, 3 through 5 of The Last of Us from somebody that worked on him. We are giving you behind the scenes in front of the scenes. During the scenes, all the seen how the scenes were done, who did, what? When, and how. And where all the, who, what, when, where why how? And you know, I these are the most upsetting episodes, of course, but ebenbolter is here to just Really lay the groundwork with how he really shot these scenes and these episodes. And it's just so good guys.

1:07 Like we were just like we took a back seat to this, he laid it all out there for us. We loved every second of it. I can't wait for you guys to hear this. Not only super talented but just one of the nicest people on Earth. Yeah, he's so nice. What you obviously here but hey, minor, spoiler warning. If you have not watched episode 3 through 5 and Some of the other episodes prior you know, the drill go watch them. But if you don't care, there's this interview for you. As always, make sure you're following us on all the socials at a bite of pod. You like the show? If it's the first time you're actually here, because you wanted to hear this interview with ebenbolter, we have a patreon. It's a bit, you know, a dollar a month, could get your bonus episodes, videos, exclusive content, all that stuff, free stuff as well, then last but not least, subscribe to the show if you like the show subscriber.

2:00 Throw some Stars, some nice words. We love that stuff. Evans career in film began at the age of 24. When he shot his first short, he continued to hone his craft by making about 50 more short films within the next year, talking about his learning experience. He said, quote, you can go to school and spend a year learning how to make a chair or you could just make a thousand chairs. I'm thinking he did the ladder there. Evan was named a bafta. Ooh, Brit in 2016 for his work on the feature film chicken and has been nominated for his work. At the Wild Rose, independent film festival, rain dance, film festival, and the LA shorts Fest in 2018, he won best cinematography for stealing silver at the Los Angeles movie awards in 2020. He was the Director of Photography for the first season of Armando iannucci.

2:52 He's space satire Avenue. Five, most recently, he has brought his incredible talents to episodes 34 in I've of HBO's mega-hit The Last of Us. And without further Ado, here's Evan. We are so excited that ebenbolter is here with us. Eben, thank you so much for spending a piece of your Sunday with a bite of. Thank you so much for having me my pleasure. How's it going today? It's going. Well, yeah, it's is Sunday evening in the UK. I just had a bath with my kids, and this is a very pleasant thing to do. After that is great. And so you had a lovely evening and I get to talk to strangers, which is always nice. Right?

3:34 Believe me. It's my pleasure. I do have to ask the first thing is, how does it feel to have been the DP on two of the most heartbreaking episodes in TV history? Yeah, it's a good question. I can see. The thing is, it's been such like, everyone thinks the thing they're working on is special at the time. Everything I've ever done. I think, I went through a period of going, this could be it, this could be the thing, this could be special, you know, and you sort of have to always have that hope you know that you have to go into a project with some excitement with this of possibility that like this is the one otherwise it's cynical and weird. I try to always have a little bit of, you know, fire in the oven to be like this is going to be great. So many times in my life, I've said to people, you know, what are you working on?

4:29 I'm doing this thing. Saying it could be really great. And, you know, you sort of yourself, hope things up, but the hope for this because I was a day one last of us, you know, 2013, PlayStation 3 player. And I've had about eight years before that the series came along of telling people how great the game was and trying to sort of, almost like a Salesman taking it on as my own, like, you gotta try this thing, you know, how you get, so invested in something, it becomes yours and it kind of does actually, in a way. I was that I was like, you know, Miss the last Us. And then separate to, that was such a fan of what Craig did with Ginobili. I was like, whatever he does. Next, I've just got to be there. I don't do anything to have an interview for in the two things collided.

5:13 It was like a dream job and everyone who knew me would was texting me saying, your dream jobs just been announced. So I was genuinely like screen grabbing my phone and forwarded that to my agent like this truly is a dream job. So, you know, make this thing happen and I won't go into the hole. Story of how I got it but it was sort of miraculous how I got it and then I read it and when I got 2 episode 3, the effect reading it had on me is the effect. I imagine it had on you guys watching it, you know different experiences and it's a different format and then you know whatever but I was so moved by it and the song was there in the script and the performances were there in the script? And it really was all there.

5:55 So I just was sort of rocked by this piece of paper I sort of sat there Like oh, like this is unbelievably good. So that's about 9 years of height. Then I've had two years of living with that script and trying to live up to that script and trying to deliver that script so everyone else can can enjoy it in the same way so for it to kind of get you know, you're always waiting for it to go wrong. You're always thinking OK, one of the cast aren't quite gonna be right or we're going to lose our location, the run out of time, run out of money, HK is going to cancel us whatever it. Is you just waiting for the thing to go wrong. Even after you've wrapped I'm in post just sort of biting my nails.

6:36 Like what if HBO says, it has to be 60 Minutes? Like what if they cut out the whole beginning and end? Or I don't know, you just don't know what's going to happen because you give it away. So for it to come out and be I think the best version possible of what that script was and then have the reception. It's hard, is just, I can't even, it's mind-blowing. I hope it's ridiculous. It's like a dream. I feel like I've sort of won the lottery and I'm going to wake up and I do it's just mad. I can't I don't know. I've never been through this before. It's been insane and just you know I first was made aware of you guys because of your love for the show and Twitter has been. Just I've never really used to my delight this because I guess this is my, you know, five minutes of Niche frame, which is fine but like I just being online and experiencing it from all over the world. I've had messages from, you know, every country in the world from people just saying how How much it meant to them and how much it moved?

7:32 And so, that's a really long answer to a simple question. Just to kind of go off of what you're saying is that I was actually traveling for work when the third episode came out. And so Noah watched it before me and he was like, you have to watch this download for your plane ride home and I ended up watching it in the lobby of my hotel before going to the airport and I was like crying in the lobby but in like the best like trying to hold it in like while people were munching on burgers around me, but it really was just a Such a beautiful episode and I've seen people from all walks of all different sexualities saying. Wow, this was incredible. Wow, it was done so well, while this story was sort of a new story in these sort of Apocalypse, line of things of this beautiful love story between these two men.

8:17 So it really does mean so much to so many people. So I mean I know you've heard this before and probably read it in eight thousand messages, but I just wanted to share that as well. It really is meant a lot to a lot of people Getting, it was so beautifully. Thank you. Well, yeah, I mean, I, you know, I think we felt the weight of that importance, particularly it being two middle-aged men, a romantic love story without cynicism. And also, without any like heavy agenda. What I, what I loved about it is it just was about truth. It was about love these completely Universal. You know, I'm not, I'm not a gay man myself. I I'm absolutely in a lie, too.

8:59 To, to any sexuality, any wake of life? I'm a very sort of open and liberal person. So I felt the responsibility for for people who are going to who this story will mean to more than me on the surface, but I could also approach it from my own truth. I've just about, you know, approaching middle age and love and I could easily, you know, to me, it's just a love story between two people and for me, you know, it could be man, woman, woman woman, man, man. It doesn't, it doesn't really change anything for sort of my approach it, but I was obviously aware of the fact. It is Two Men. And so, there's an extra level of listening of understanding that perspective. And Peter, I director is a game and our editor, Tim the script. So, you know, there are a lot of voices who who, you know, their voice on anything coming up is heard even more when it's something like that.

9:57 But yeah, I do. I felt the sort of the weight of the responsibility without feeling, I don't know. It's just a very sort of open honest. Lovely thing and I was very lucky to be there. Well, it sounds like you did approach it in the right way, right? It's not. It's not a gay love story. It just is a story of love. Yeah, totally. Exactly. And I did see one rainbow flag in that entire episode. There is one actually, there is no on the blanket, right there. And that. Yeah, and it's funny because I saw I was reminded of that or in fact that, that Association was pointed out to me on Twitter by somebody.

10:38 And I actually can't. I don't think I don't know if that ever was came up as like a thing. I don't know, if I'm honest, I don't like it was never like we've got to get a rainbow flag in that. It wasn't that maybe when it was like, is it this one? This one, this one, someone went well that would be cool, maybe I wasn't there for that conversation but Yeah, I think I don't know if that's a happy accident or a nice little thing that Peter did and didn't tell anyone, I don't know. So I want to just take a step back for a minute because I was like, we're going to talk more about episodes 3, 4 & 5. I kind of want for folks listening who might not be familiar with, what a Director of Photography does. Can you give us like a one or two minute?

11:19 Sort of line about what your main job is on the set of a show? Absolutely. I don't think my parents know what I do. So it's a very, very common. I mean I'm actually part of it is the truth is my job changes a lot. I do honestly, I don't know what it is but there are jobs where my, you know, on a commercial. For example, my job is to do exactly what I'm told. It's this thing's been through all of the agency creatives and they want me to to light the Coke can or whatever it is and do this exact shot that's on a storyboard and I've just got to technically deliver. The image that has been requested and that's about it on others. Stuff.

12:00 Or maybe if I'm working on a film or a short film with director, who's a first-timer or with an actor turned director, which is quite a common one. They may approach a scene and say, help me. How do I do this? And my job then becomes absolutely be the right-hand person to the director. I've got to be with the director. I had an expression someone else said about like the director quite often is an island on their own and everyone. Trying to sort of attack them and take their peace and they can feel incredibly isolated and the job of the cinematographer it to be on the island with them. You've just got you spend every second with them. You're texting them, when you're not together, you're you're constantly talking about scenes about ideas about references and yeah when it comes to being on set a director like that really does look to the cinematographer to talk about the blocking to talk about the shots to talk about everything. So I kind of take on the mantle It'll of visual Storyteller. I think it's my job to deliver visual storytelling the degree to which I add.

13:10 My own ideas versus deliver other people's ideas. Just depends on the director. So on something like the last of us, we've got an incredibly detailed script and Craig knows what he wants and we've got a world that we know from the video game. So, there's a lot of things that are already kind of in place. So, the job then is, How do you make this the best version possible? So in prep, that's working with the art Department, to talk about locations to talk about building sets to talk about high Concepts, about lighting. What are the Torches look like, you know, how we going to make bills Town? Feel like a real town because we built that Outdoors. Where's his house? What orientation to the sun is the house. When we get into the Interiors, we're going to build those on a soundstage.

13:56 How do I make those feel like real locations? And not like a soundstage. Blue screen Through the Windows and so. Yeah. I work with my lighting department to design all the lighting and you know this the whole train just keeps moving and every day we're talking about how we're going to shoot it. What's it going to look like? What are the shots going to be what's, you know, there any special shots are there any all of those things? So sometimes it's really big broad stroke. Sometimes it's the minutiae of I need the tablecloth to be white but not too white, things like that, you know, that's Job. So in the end, I think if someone says let's The Last of Us looks pretty, then great. In a way, I've done my job but also sometimes it's not about that, it's about.

14:41 If someone says that performance was great, I can actually sort of to myself, feel like I've had a part to play in that. Because as part of the sort of filmmaking machine, we're really involved in everything. And I think particularly me as a cinematographer, I tried to be incredibly empathetic to what's meaning for the greater good. It's not just I want every shot to be perfect. It's I want this to be great. So sometimes the performance is everything. So Bill and Frank at the piano that was all about performance. That was all about sensitivity that was all about giving them Freedom. We cross shot that. So it's bills shot and Frank shot at the same time. We did it two shots. We got three cameras covering that all at the same time and that gave them the space to just do their thing rather than if I said okay now I need the perfect lighting on Marie. I'm just going to shoot marine and then Nick off camera is doing something incredible and we haven't seen it. The audience had ever going to see it and that seemed takes on a whole new.

15:40 Maybe my shot on Murray was 10% nicer but the scene overall is worse. So you know the people kind of simplify what cinematographer is a lot of the time into is it pretty or not and in some ways that is our responsibility, but I guess what I'm saying is sometimes we make things look worse. So too. The overall benefit of the piece thank you for taking their time because you know in getting ready to talk to you we were watching. We were trying to find just the best YouTube video to tell us exactly what we needed to know about cinematography more like this sounds too complicated, like this doesn't make sense, but you did it perfectly. Thank you. And I do want to say, that, that scene at the piano is one of my favorite scenes of the epidemics it because like you said, there's something about Nick's sort of tentative performance. And that and Marie trying to welcome him over and Create that relationship and wow, that decision that you just explained.

16:34 It just makes so much sense and it really created that seen it made it exists as it does in the way it should. Well, you know, there's no point. She's like a beautiful image. That doesn't mean anything is pointless. You know, and I've learned that the hard way doing lots of films, Nobody seen and sometimes pouring my heart and soul into this thing and me and aesthetically. I've gone that some of my best work but you take a step. Back from that and you realize it's in a piece of work that either hasn't been seen or isn't very good and it is pointless. So more than ever, now, I just want the overall piece to be great and be a part of the machine that helps that happen. And so sometimes it's the cul-de-sac and it's a I've got to do all this technical stuff to make it feel like Moonlight and do all this action.

17:23 You can't just rock up and turn the camera on and press go. That's you know, there's a lot of work required but sometimes The piano sing and you just have to take a backseat and let magic happen. And I agree. It's probably my favorites. That all the strawberries putting my favorite scenes in the episode. And there the scenes where I was the most restrained and performances first. And I think that was the correct approach that was a Derek and I had made sure to write down some scenes. We specifically wanted to hear you talk about. Those were the two scenes? Like those are both of our favorite ones. Well, something like that. So beautiful on the page. Exactly as written. And we realized that really it's a two-minute scene with the two of them and it's quite simple.

18:09 So we in the, in the sort of overall, you know, Arc of their relationship and this and the story. We were careful not to get to visually romantic too often because you can kind of overdo it, you need, you need all the sort of seasons and weather you know. But that really felt like an opportunity to kind of lean into Terrence Malick and to be a little bit more. Chicawa and let's, let's sort of embrace nature and make it warm and loving as written. So we actually plot it out where the stories would be relative to where the sun would be in the sky just before it sets. So we set this whole thing up so that we have a 15 minute window to shoot it multi-cameras again, but maybe two, maybe three takes before we'd lose the Sun and it's the real Sun. So when it's gone, it's gone.

18:55 And so that's that is as another version of the same thing. We're setting up the situation in a way that makes sense to make it sort of look the best it can but also bright for the scene and there is a flexibility for the actors. But also we've only got three takes so we've really got to be on it. We've got to have rehearsed IT. Cameras have to reset quickly. It isn't a okay. I'm going to go for a bathroom break. I'll be back in 10 minutes, it's gone. So yeah, we were all I was relying on was we would get it in three takes performance-wise, which was I think we got it in. Take frankly, they're so good and I needed the some. So if a big cloud of come along that could have been a problem and we had these feathers in the air.

19:38 I wanted to kind of, you know, I really did lean into nature and magic and stuff, and we had I wanted this idea of pollen in the air. So the sfx team, cut up all these tiny little feathers. They really cut feathers up into tiny little pieces, glue them into the air with massive fans and they sort of rain down on waste like snow and just kind of catch the wind. And if you watch the I've seen again, you can see it's kind of catching pollen in the air and that's another thing that's a committee gamble because, you know, the wind and you don't want something like that to stop halfway through a scene, but the sfx team were brilliant and it it all came together. So you're saying that Nick Offerman didn't have to do his giggle more than once.

20:19 It was a perfect giggle for that. See my, my side and excite to that giggle is. I'd heard it once before. When we first met Nick, it was a lovely thing. The crate did for every episode where just before we started shooting every episode, we go out for dinner with the sort of main heads of departments and the cast, and the new director to have all these lovely dinners of like bonding. Kind of like you do on a movie before you start the film, they just created lovely like camaraderie. And I sat next to Nick and we were in this Japanese restaurant and he was this like incredible piece of rare beef and he took one bite, and he did that giggle. It was a very different emotion but it I remember Eating like that's so awesome but hit like so I don't know that it came out again with the strawberries but it's a very authentic thing. He does just visually aside from the performances alone but I want to watch it again and look out for those little those feathers because it did give that magical feeling it gave that feeling of just them being there and they're the only people in the world.

21:23 Yeah, it was so good, so good. You know, I feel like with that seen it like no said, that was a word. I was there. Magic. It felt ethereal write that scene in it felt like almost like a break for all of us including the characters. We can kind of just sit in that beautiful like almost dusk moment, right? And just enjoy this with them. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. We don't know what's to come and what we already know it happens because I mean, overall there are ups and downs in their lives. But you know, they are winners. Like the, what happens in The Last of Us world? I want their story. I want their end. Ding, like they win. That's best case scenario for what's happened in the outer world.

22:04 And so we did just want to sort of celebrate this happy moments. You know, it doesn't always have to be you know, so sort of heavy and sad and so yeah it was a case of visually picking the moment to kind of go a bit bigger and express the sort of visual love. So it was I'd say that their spec seen the strawberries and the wedding at the three times. When I kind of was like, Let's let's enjoy this visually and get warm and romantic. And I mean, having 20 years of your own Eden just aside from one night with a Raiders. But yeah, you know. Yeah. Having that is, what better thing could you ask for?

22:46 Yeah, in a post-apocalyptic World. Exactly. And like, you know, Marie Marie's this sadness, obviously, what happens to Mary's character, Frank is sad, but also, you know, the life ends eventually and I think they, they have Like he says, I'm satisfied and they've had a good run and you know, like it I don't know that they're in control at the end, they both choose how they go out. Ultimately and maybe they could have survived another year or something. But you know, what point with the relationship and we'll all life, not be as beautiful as it once was. So I think they're the winners and he was coherent enough to make that choice because I think that as far as queer people in media goes so many times, this is something that Every time I talk about this episode, I'm like, yes, the queer people did die in this, but it was on their terms.

23:35 Yeah, they decided and that's huge. Yeah. And I think, I mean, Nick bill says, this isn't the, the sad, you know, suicide at the end of the play or whatever, I think he really spells out. This is different to that they're going out on their terms and the right way, happy satisfied, you know, as we're saying, there's sort of this, like, beautiful bubble that they're living in this Eden where they spend these 20, Years together. But the backdrop still is this apocalypse, you know. So how when you're when you're creating their you know home their homes through this town that they live in? How did you go about creating that intimacy? But also with this backdrop of infected maybe coming in or the fact that there is sort of the end of the world happening around them?

24:20 Yeah, yeah. So I think that's why it's important to pick out the moments of pure happiness and love, and joy and lean into them. But then also, You know, you have to sort of keep reminding the audience that there's a big scary gate there and traps for a reason. And there's infected out there and there're even worse, human beings out there who are gonna, you know, get desperate and a capable of all manner of things. So, yeah, it's just I I would credit the script mostly for boy. Yeah, absolutely. I credit the script for for balancing all of those things and then my job is just to visually to represent that I think and like I said to pick out moments of warmth and and loveliness but then also allow things to feel different.

25:11 I mean, the final Montage before they have their final meal. We decided to do a kind of late Autumn feel. So we put all of these leaves everywhere and massive fans, like a wind machine, and it just felt sort of like, like, you know, this Happiness and it's like there's an end-of-life feel to that, but it's also kind of like a beauty in it, you know, in those leaves blowing around their hair blowing around. There's something sort of dramatically interesting about that. And obviously the Raiders attack, we wanted the Raiders attack to feel incredibly nightmare it and dark and scary and real.

25:51 And yeah it was just always making sure there was a variety of feelings to their world and not always just Just lovely bubble of Happiness. Yeah. More like real life. Yeah. Almost a reminder like, hey, by the way. Yeah, yeah there's stuff out there. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. One of the questions I do have to ask about episode 3 is, can you just tell me what went into that? Final shot of the window. You kind of alluded to it on Twitter with our episode 3 discussion, but I just hands down. That's probably my favorite favorite shot. It's just so beautiful. But I just need to know anything. You want to share about that one.

26:33 Yes, I Kraig and Neil had initially decided. We were going to have a window shop to begin every episode. So when you click on episode 1, on HBO, Max, it would bring up a window and you would press, you know, play like in the game and then it would begin. But each window would be different and which somehow represent what the episode was so epic. I said three as it is, we actually shot s. So episode 1 was shot, then we did episode 3. So this was the second thing done on production so they'd only done one window shot before at the beginning of episode 1. I can't even remember what it was. It doesn't matter.

27:16 They're done a window shop. It was probably this probably Sarah's bedroom window actually think then we had a window shot to do so Peter and I that we just knew there was this like assignment of a window shot and it In the script and it wasn't a thing other than Craig wanted window starts. We're like what? It's got to be built in Frank's house somehow. So what could it be? And I think it was. Yeah. And so basically, I was thinking about that and I was thinking, well, if it's going to be at the beginning, it's going to be better parents house, but I'm not sure like what that means. I'm not sure like what it is because we don't know them yet. And like I guess if you watch it twice you'll be like oh that's sweet, it's been in Frank's house.

27:59 So then I came up the idea of book ending it. So for our episode, as an exception, we were going to do the opening window shop, but also do that final shot. And we're going to start the episode with the kind of zoomed out end of the shop. Then you got the whole episode and then you would end exactly as we did, and that all came together by in the script. The final shot was Joel and Ellie, drove off into the sunset and the song plays cut to Black and Sir. And I was sort of saying well how do we like it feels like we just want to tag it back to Bill and Frank story because that is the heart of this episode. So we talked about the driving into the sunset and maybe the camera pans over and then we see better things town in the distance. Then we sort of I think I had the idea of what if we see them driving away.

28:49 And then we reveal that we're looking through the window and the window is, you know, their window and I did a video in my hotel and sent that to Craig is like a pitch. Basically and he was like, yeah, let's shoot it and let's see if it fits. So we did it with enthusiasm and thought, this is really clever, really great but we were worried that it would get cut because only our episode would have the book ending of the beginning and the end. We thought maybe, I don't know that it's like, I don't know, that just feels like the sort of thing that's going to get cut. So in a way, luckily for us, they cut all of the beginning ones and our ending one remained. So it was sort of one of those Things that it just kind of all came together. I guess we were lucky, to be honest, but it did take. I've said, online, I had to fight for it and the reason that I put it like that, isn't that there were people saying, no, we don't want to do it, but it wasn't an easy shot because we didn't have upstairs rooms.

29:49 We built that house out on location and we didn't build a roof. Nothing was dressed. And the inside, will the insides were on a soundstage. So then it becomes Um, Zoe zooming through the we tracking back through a window and everything. Outside is a blue screen. It's VFX that doesn't seem smart. So what we ended up actually doing was picking where we wanted the car to drive off and then building a corner of a room up in the air like floating in the middle of in the middle of nowhere. So all of this is quite elaborate and the implementation of the shot was actually second unit so we it didn't fit into our schedule. So Peter and I were on set shooting something else and we had like a video feed of them doing that shot time and time again.

30:35 And we'd give give them notes long-distance, but we won't even we were 100 miles away from them when they were doing well. And they had to do it, I can't remember it's two times or three separate times because the first time the sun wasn't very good. Like it's really cloudy sad-looking day and maybe the second time, there's a technical problem or something. But, you know, Peter. And I really had to keep on like this show It's going to be awesome. We've got to keep trying. We can't give up on it. So it was a it was a yeah. Everyone was very supportive but there was a lot of. Do you really need it? Yes, we do. Okay, fine, then we'll do it. Yes. Yes you did. Yes. And in the end.

31:15 Yeah, I agree. I mean I don't think I'd really appreciated the impact it would have. So I was obviously very much involved in that shot but watching it for the first time myself, it really sort of hit me how it worked in a way that, you know, you just Pick out. Yeah, talk it out. The idea of the air as an idea at the time and you don't really know if it's going to work until you see it and hear it and feel it. I like the idea of you just shooting some windows in your hotel being like I'm telling you, this is gonna work, I've got the video. I'm not going to post it online, but I did send it to Peter is like a reminder, of the initial Inception. It's baked. You can hear my kid, like, crying in the background and it's me just walking back and kick. Peter had the idea for the picture of Frank.

31:57 I love Bill. Sorry, and And of the dying flowers than his like and I think they're lovely touch. So yeah, it all came together. What about those scenes? Like, when it's sort of like a montage, right? Of Bill. We're watching Bill, take care of the land, he's feeding the chickens and he's checking the gate. And like, how much time is spent on sort of like these very smaller scenes in a montage. Yes. So anything with the actors in it would be mainly in it. So so yeah, I show all of that stuff. Office tidy bethan. She scheduled it and just really smart ways where we would know. Okay, we've got this scene in the morning and it's chunky.

32:41 And we've got this scene in the evening and that's pretty chunky. We may get a two-hour Gap in the middle of the day and we may get an hour at the end of the day to do something else. So what can what do we want to do? And it would be a case of okay, we want to do chickens, you know that he's got a hot chickens and easily feeding the chickens and we'll just shoot that. At and you just set up a few scenarios that basically knit could just wander into and start chopping wood or start hanging up, you know, an animal or whatever it is and we shot tons of that stuff, loads of it didn't make the cut actually, I don't think the chickens made the cut, actually. Yeah, I'm pretty sure that you only want Rizzoli one scene with him, feeding chickens, okay? That was my did that scene, it 10 times. And I still remember the And seen. Yeah.

33:30 Well sometimes it's funny how sometimes the experience of shooting something you think it's in it and people go? What are you talking about? That's not in it. And it's like, really, I even had that with Peter, the director of the episode we were talking about a scene and I was like, it's not in it anymore and he's like it's gone. We had a fireflies seeing we had the scene, it's in the game. We're actually walking through a forest and she finds some fireflies and she's like, huh fireflies, like real ones. And We actually shot that but it got cut and it was it was very pretty little moment, but you know, it was already a long episode and in the end, yeah, the version you have seen a promise. You is the only and the best fashion. There was all this stuff about a director's cut, but that's not actually how it works.

34:18 And the director Peter would not would he would not want you to see that version, there's always a long cut and that's like, usually awful actually, you know, It's not the best question, it's funny how there's this idea sometimes with the director's cut and that's like in your head, like all that's the direct but it's so often actually not the better car. And the director himself would say that because it's more to do with the logistics of a big TV series that he hands in his cup but he hasn't got really any time at all to work on it. It's a very short process. He hands it in then the whole rest of the show happens and then when it comes to Really locking the episodes down. You've got to look at the show.

35:02 Overall, you can't just be sort of tunnel vision, 21 episodes. So, so many things change along the way and score and the editors have more time with it. And I mean, I've been with Peter in a Q&A where he said, this is the best question of it, and he wouldn't want anyone to see the director's cut because it's not really a director's cut. It's just a, an early draft. If you like, it's just more chickens, that's an even small chicken. Just there's nothing. That's really nothing. Cut. That means anything. There's a lot more texture. We you hang out with Bill a bit more but there's nothing. Yeah, nothing if story is lost. Yeah there is no picking out clothes Montage at the boutique in the town and what that there wasn't a boutique actually that was just an exhibit that was just a facade so it would it would have been lovely but no, it is interesting that you're when you're explaining In how, you know, the multiple deep. He's on a show, how you guys kind of got hired and you had free reign.

36:06 But it's interesting that the story itself almost encourages that, with job, different settings and different times. So that's that's actually pretty cool. That it all looks the same but you can still feel it being different. Yeah. Well, have you seen episode 5? Yeah, yeah, just come out. But yeah. So I shot episode 3 and Aisha, episode 5 and I think they feel Very different. It's still me. It's still the show. They don't feel so different when you're like, whoa, this is another thing. It's still the same thing but that's the things you can Approach episode 3 like a love story and and early days for Joel and Ellie, another thing actually just out of Interest trivia on episode 3 is because we shot it s. When you think about what happens in episode 1, Joel and Ellie don't have any alone time episode 2 is we're testing S dies, right?

37:00 And so they step out of that into episode 3 but we hadn't even show episode 2 so we've we've, you know, ended at the sewed one with them, leaving the qz walking off towards the The Two Towers, right? And then boom were on the set with me and pizza and they're walking talking about the cordyceps outbreak. So we actually have to jump forward in their relationship and for everyone involved, it was like, oh well this is this is Joel and Ellie. And with we are Establishing, Joel, and Ellie and their relationship. So, really, that's just to give so much credit to Bella and Pedro, who are just so across their characters, that you would never think that.

37:42 And you could never tell in a million years. But I'm pretty sure the first scene they did together on their own, was the big walk and talk talking about cordyceps and and outbreak day and seeing their a plane that conversation as well. We all remember the the airplane scene was one of the or that it still was one of the first things that I think most people Saul from the in the show. Yeah, well that was the that I'm 19. No, that was day two. In fact, that was day to day one. Sorry day. One with Peter of our episode was down by the water with Joel, the very beginning and then the conversation of the two of them breakfast where they talk about you. Hey it wasn't my decision, blah blah blah and they listen that was the first day and that was what we did first date. With the airplane and the walk and talk. So yeah, it's very early.

38:33 So speaking about, you know, saying because you were saying like you, of course, did three four and five, and they do feel so different. And so kind of moving towards episodes. 4 and 5, we had episode 3, which felt very intimate. It was really about two characters, and, of course, Joel and Ellie are there. But then you move into this, large Place Kansas City, where there's tons of people. So what's it like going from this sort of so smaller, intimate Cass. Just to this now, huge Place. Yeah, we knew the show very well, a lot of stuff already been done so then it was a case of how do we give Kansas City? Well, we've got the road trip, that was one part of it. So let's say Do America.

39:14 Let's show the American road trip in this world and let's show what's been lost. What's been left behind? Which was really interesting. Just conceptually the sort of things that Craig was interested in showing a lot of sort of Calamity, which is great. Then when we get to Kansas what, what is Kansas feel like? So, a lot of research, a lot of art department. And then for me, it was how do I, how do I lean into something different here? How do I give it a different flavor? And there's a lot of red brick buildings, you know, the architecture feels a little bit different and for the street lighting and you've got a qz or and some electricity. So I knew I wanted to basically just tiny little thing, no one would ever notice, but I used the kind of Orange Sodium Street Lighting in sort of episode 1 & 2.

40:03 I went a lot more yellow little bit of green in the sodium Street lighting. So it's a tiny little nothing. No one would ever know that, but I just, it just then gives us a, that's the qz street Lighting in Kansas City, and it's just somehow different. So it's all those little things, and then, yeah, there was a lot of, a lot of planning for the action sequences, you know, our department build a Toy sets may have little models and we figure out. This is how the car needs to crash. So, this is where they hide. This is where the hole needs to be. This is where the guy needs to come in, because everything's built everything on the show's Bill, we don't really use real locations. So, so, they were tiny little like, models of, yeah, did you get to keep any of them? I would've loved save it.

40:49 Nice, that beat that beautiful. They'll be in an HBO Museum or something. One day, they're truly. I mean the cul-de-sac I actually posted a picture of the cul-de-sac one. Today on Twitter, they, you know, they're scale models of what they're going to build. And they usually they'll do a huge one for sort of global geography. And then they'll do each individual room, and it is just like the Sims or whatever you just really just play with it, you know? And and yeah, don't jump ahead to the coldest up on the cul-de-sac. We were just playing toy cars and characters and it'd be like it's nice there. This, you know, and you that's how you map it all out because Just got to do that work. Because if you don't, then you start laying foundations and a road and then someone goes, oh, wait a minute. If you're in trouble, so saves a lot of money and also a lot more brainstorm, it get that.

41:42 But yeah. Yeah. Prep is prep is everything like if you've really done the work and prep the shoot, just kind of happens and and these problems have already been confronted, if prep isn't great, you figure it out on the day and that costs in that cost you time. I'm usually more than anything else. Yeah, speaking of the of the road trip in episode 4, one of my favorite parts of that is actually, you know, such a sort of teenager moment, when Ellie wakes up on the forest floor and she rolls over in her sleeping bag to the percolating coffee. I just love that shot being solo being on the ground with her watching the coffee. Spit up at her.

42:22 I thought that was such a great moment. Yeah, that's Bella. Yeah. I mean, yes, you know. Yeah, Cameron is spin the right. It's the stuff like that, but it's just a sort of human fun thing, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's so often seems like that. And seeing sometimes out in nature, when it's going to be. Yeah. Like there are scenes where you plan meticulously. And sometimes there are scenes, we go, they're just going to be in the wood and they're going to wake up. And this is the scene, and let's see what they do because you need to give the actors, you know, for all of this planning and everything I said before. Sometimes it's action and stunts the technical and safety and they've got to do what they're told but when it's a seem like that you want to give them freedom and actually, then my job morphs into looking for the shops and seeing, oh, that's cool. You know, Pedro does this cool thing and we can use that and blah blah blah, you sort of see it happen in front of you and figure out the shots in real time. On a more, I guess.

43:23 Technical note with the shots, the Ambush scene, starting in the car, all the the pier, These and everything like that. I mean how how hard is it to capture something like that? Because it did seem like there was a bunch of different camera work going on and just that one scene. Yeah, so that is a big collaboration with stunts locations, art Department picture cars, everyone has to come together. So that is the sort of sequence that you storyboard and I think we even previous that. So you do a little video you know, previous thing. And I mean, one of the Best things we use now is a podcast so you have the truck but there's a pod that gets bolted to the roof of the truck. Stop me.

44:08 I mean I don't sorry if this is okay this podcast sometimes. Yeah sometimes with our job you don't know what's kind of crossed over into popular culture and what people know about and or not. And I don't know about podcasts but so Aquatica is it's a pod that stuck on the roof of a car and has a driver, a stunt driver on the roof with his own. Will and he is driving the car to the ACT is there in the car, but the steering wheel doesn't do anything. The brakes don't do anything driving from the roof. So a lot of that scene, use the podcast, so, Pedro and Bella, I just passengers, essentially, and the guy on the roof does all the driving. So that means you can swerve. You can, you know, you can drive a bit more confidently because, you know, having to worry about acting.

44:50 It's a cool thing. We used it quite a lot on the last to us. So yeah, that sequence. It was a case of the K. This is a podcast shot because we need to see Bella. Joel, Pedro and Bella in the car, moving this all were behind them or whatever. You know this is a shot with the real actors. Then it's identifying. Okay. This is outside of the car where leading the car we're on a kind of go-kart almost in kind of car. This can be the stunt drivers because we can't really see with the reflection, you know, the crash and stuntpeople. So you're sort of everyone is having their input on. This is what's needed to do this shot and sometimes it's the case. Of, we need you to move the camera so that we can't see that.

45:32 It's not actually. Pedro is the Stunt Driver, it's all those kind of conversations and things like throwing is a breeze. Block gets thrown from above and it hits the windscreen. So that's a huge one for sfx because we wanted to physically see the thing and it really be thrown and it's like a piece of polystyrene, it's like a foam thing and then they have a thing to break the wind screen basically actually from memory. Remember how we did it? We Let's it a few different ways at one point, you've got one that gets thrown and then you've got one that's like on an arm attached to the car, and just gets dropped from a closed tight and causes us to remember exactly how we did it in the end, but sfx lead that they really say.

46:13 This is the safest best way to get it. And then we just get the shot was that scene because I know in episode 5, we see Henry sees that scene, but from a different vantage point was that the same shot? Or was it two? Shots. We did Racine's those shots. Yeah. Yeah. So we so we knew that those shots were on the list to get for the next episode, but we covered them separately. So when we had the guy going across and getting shot, we shot all we needed for episode 4. Yes. Then we would jump back to Henry's perspective, episode 5 and run it again basically and it's things like, you know, Joel's position in in the laundromat. Where he shoots from the reality of where Henry's position was meant, you couldn't quite see Joel, so you've got a cheap girl forwards enough to see him, but it not feel like too much which eat that, it doesn't feel like the same position. So you kind of couldn't do those two of the same time. You can bring him in front of the car when he was behind the car.

47:18 Shoot, exactly. Those are the conversations you have. I mean, you would be amazed sometimes. Yeah, the whole thing is always about what are the audience can notice, you know? And it's And that isn't like, we feel like we're getting one off on the audience. It's just where the audience to and is it going to bump and actually a classic one? Is the beginning of episode 3 that Stephen King didn't like because it was not 10 miles, west of Boston, Red. The beginning of episode 3 with the with the view and that was that we all talked about that on set. It's one of those things where it's like we this is the location we have, it looks incredible. If we let the other direction there was a waterfall I mean it was actually A bigger mountain and a waterfall.

48:00 So, in terms of just pure Aesthetics it would have looked a lot nicer looking the other way. We thought we were being restrained to looking that way. And, you know, we had references of conceivably. There are places similar to this 10, Mile 10 miles, west of Boston, or whatever. But anyway, yeah, it's one of those things where you think you got away with it and sometimes you don't, because the reality is, you can't go to Boston, just empty out everything you can. Always go to the real spot. That's so much cheating, that happens. I mean Kansas City. That's Calgary. We shot everything in Calgary and we just had to be smart with. Let's use these two blocks for back streets, Kansas City. And we can't use those book two streets over because we use them for Boston.

48:47 You know, it's that kind of way up and you're just trying to pick locations, this is all our department really, but it's picking architecture that conceivably could be where you're supposed to be and you just hope. You get away with it. How early are you in these locations before? You're actually starting to shoot. So you could see what the art department has sort of picked out and chosen for these areas. Yes. Oh, so when we start prepping the episode, usually about two months before the episode begins shooting, we'll look at locations. So typically will be shown three for every one. So, you know, the beginning of episode or where are we have so far? Let's say up so cool.

49:29 Yeah, we talked about for so Kansas City. Let's say there's the tunnel that are trying to get through and it's the roadblock we get shown three places where we can get enough control to dress, all the cars we need in and block the road. And then we approach each one on the location scout. As if. Okay, if we had to shoot here what would we do? And you figure out the shots, you figure out our departments. Say they will put a big lorry here, will do all this stuff and you just kind of walk away going. This is the one we want and you usually get your first choice but you don't always. Ways, sometimes you get your third choice and then you just got to make it work and then that process. So, once you've got your location, then the art department will start concept saying it. So, they'll off their photographs, they'll start painting over the photograph what they're going to design, and then we all approve it, you know, crack crave. Craig, ultimately approves everything, but we will, we will pitch into art Department.

50:21 I may say that's great, but can you change the wall color, to something darker? And can you give me a hole in the ceiling? Because I just know I'm going. I need it and I want to get that in before Craig sees it and says, yes, because I, you know, I have to have my say to make sure it's going to work for my department and what I'm thinking, and then they start building it and then the day comes around and you shoot it. Yeah. It's it's a wild processing. It comes together. Yeah, it's crazy how many moving Parts there are and how so many different departments and people have to really be on the same Journey. Even though they're far apart from each other, you all have to be working towards that same. Um, goal, and it seems like you as the DP really have to have tabs on a lot of those different departments for what you're creating. You're just like a walking Excel sheet basically just with you, just going to be and I said everything. I mean a little bit less on the last of us but costumes, big one as well.

51:14 Because ultimately, if you stand, you know, a person in a room that's got that's very well dressed and their clothing contrast beautifully with the wall. You can pretty much hold a camera up. Look how it looks great together to get to that point. You have to make sure that the costume and the wall and whatever I'm gonna work, you know. So you really have to kind of get good at figuring out how to talk to costume, how to talk to our department so that they're doing what they want to do and bringing all their expertise. But in the end when it all comes together on the lens, I need everything to work in the camera, not just the specifics of what I'm doing, but what they've done to put in front of two of us. So things like the color white, like the true color white like, you know, like our pods or something is pretty much band onset you.

52:10 You could almost play a game of, find something white in the shot, and you'll struggle because on a film camera, the way it works with light, it's just going to explode. It's going to Ping. It's going to be too bright and then I'm fighting against it. So if art department or costume, want something white, I have to Explore all the Alternatives and then if it really has to be white, if it's a wedding dress, for example, you just usually they die it with like grade. I to take that edge of whites off because if it's if it's truly brilliant. Right? White. It just looks bad on camera. So yeah, but but I've got to be the police. I can't, you can't, you know, it's easy for things to just happen. Like white pieces of paper in an office is a classic one, right? And I'm like, put them in a folder. Them in a folder, get them in red folders or whatever. But I don't I you know, I just don't want pieces of paper everywhere because suddenly I'm going to be going. Whoa, that's really bright.

53:07 It's a good thing that in the last of us I don't think any of their clothes could be white apocalypse on it. Yes, too shy. It's true in this show. That's pretty easy actually, isn't it? You got 20 years of dirt over everything but Did a Marvel series off to this and that was a lot more glossy so that was a bigger Factor on that. We're leaning into you saying Marvel. So hmm. And you say what? Marvel series worked on it. Yeah, yeah. But well yeah, I can I'm not officially credited yet. But yes, I did a, I did a thing called secret Invasion with Samuel Jackson his Nick Fury series which was great. So officially I came in and I did the additional photography which was so for months.

53:58 Of shooting and re shooting stuff, which often happens in Marvel stuff. So, I don't know. 100, you, I don't even 100% know what my credit is yet, but yes, it was, it was like four months of, very enjoyable. MCU was great. And well, well, that's also we're big Marvel fans. Like, I think most people are so cool. That's a top of our list for watching that's going to be coming out in parts of the phase. Part of a phase. Yeah, the end of, for, I guess, what? Righto name are we five? I know she'll announce to that. I don't know. I think we're if I squint Romania is five now so I guess which I didn't even know that. Yeah, wow, yeah. I don't know. I with Marvel, I very much get a bit like, oh God.

54:41 Are they listening like the police? You know, like I've got a very NDA obviously. So absolutely. I've got to be careful, but it was really fun and great. And I'm hopefully working with it again, at some point. So I'll talk about it more when I can, but it was great. Yeah, we're looking forward to that. That for sure. So instead of Phase 5, let's talk about episode 5 of great segue. Yeah, thank you. Thank you. Just came up with that. I mean, the magic and that's what happens. One of the things I wanted to talk about in episode 5. And and first of all, of course, we have just two more amazing characters of our of our caste here who give us that emotional gut punch at the end of this. But one of the things I was most interested hearing about Was when they're traveling in the tunnels, trying to get to the other side.

55:32 They kind of come across this bunker, which almost looks like it could have been some sort of children's school or just the play Young and we see these cheerful paintings on the wall but it's still so dark and so scary. So when you're shooting a scene like that that's underground but has Port holes in the ceiling for light, there's disintegrating children's, you know, drawings how do you balance those those feelings and Of the emotion of them walking into this room. Yeah, I've forgotten about how hot that one was actually. So, it's a good question, it was hard because the brief was they need to, you know, it's a, it's a horror film. It's a lien on the way there, but when they get there, once they're inside, you need to sort of relief of this used to be a safe place and probably is still a safe place now, not 100%. But you know, there's warmth here. And it's you know you need to be with Ellie. I think it's Ellie when she says, you know, can't we just you know, there's stuff to do here, can we just hang out for a minute?

56:39 So the thing that made it difficult was, I had quite a low ceiling and we were like, six. Floors underground in a real location. This is one of the few real locations that we did use. Can't remember why? But we did. And so, I had to suffer find a way to justify some daylight In there. So we came up with this idea for like a kind of. What do you use to good word, but what did you say word whole like, oh, I think I'm Ventus something. Yeah, exactly. Like event. Yeah, we came up with something that conceivably would allow some light from up above to come in. But in reality, it was you build the vent and I've got like that much room for a light. So I'm putting a light.

57:24 They're very, very bright, very low-profile light, that gives the feeling of a Daylight up there really stressful because that's a difficult one because it's completely counter organic. It's not, you know, it's not what is available in Nez. So, yeah, that was a hard one. They had we built it. We would have had higher ceilings and we would have had big events. And I've had bigger lights further away and blasted it. And put lots of smoke in there and it would've been great. But I still. Yeah, I'm proud of what we did there. Think it was still good. It's still. It had to feel like you said, like there's like a still a little A bit of threat there. It's not like this Wonderland, it's still been left to rot for quite a long time and using light and shade, but we did try to lean into a bit of warmth and safety. Yeah, even felt just, you know, you're there surrounded by these sort of cheerful images, but even as they're playing in finally getting to be kids, you're scared. They're making too much noise.

58:20 What are they doing? Yeah, so I feel like that really captured that sort of intensity. It seems like in a lot of the show as I'm watching it there's like These chances where you really do want to relax and lean back but you know that the tension is still there. I mean I think it's a classic laughs first thing to any time. Things are too good. You kind of get your guard up but it's like all God's Naughty Dog. You're going to break my heart again and actually that's what was so great about the billowed. Frank one in the end is that they didn't really play that trick if you like you know there were moments with the Raiders with those like oh God is building it. You know where you think that is what's happening but that That was interesting that it subverted that expectation.

59:02 But yeah, agreed. And even, you know, it with Ellie and Sam in the hotel room before he reveals that he has been bitten. It's such a sweet scene and, you know, the the older guys have just bonded as well and everything. So hopeful and positive and it's, you know, watching it with people who don't know, the game is, finally, what's coming? I don't know if you guys did but You have your guard up for? Yeah, I know what's happening? Next Noah is the game player. I'm the game Watcher. So as he plays II watch, but I wasn't familiar with that part, I'd only seen like the beginning.

59:43 Some of the beginning parts of the first game. So no one knew and I was the one clutching my head going. No, no, no, no, when it's amazing. What a great experience when you watch it together. So you don't know how the series ends there are. No, I do know how this Cereal grains. Yeah yeah. Unfortunately I have been spoiled by the world because that's the most. They did a really good job with going into that bill and Frank episode that made me more excited for the series because I'm like low. They're gonna pick and choose where they deviate and they just, you know they really deviated on that one to a benefit of the whole thing. But I'm just really excited to see how Everything else pans out. I was trying to tell Derek because he doesn't know too much about the next couple parts that are going to happen and I'm like, oh no, that salmon Henry, the were the last really heartbreaking thing that should be in episode 1? I was like, oh wait, no no, no, never mind. Yeah but I'm also excited.

1:00:44 I'm also excited to see how they change that so that it's just, you know, episode 3 really changed the game. I think for longtime fans. Yeah good. Yeah. I mean I don't think I should Anything because I don't want to, I don't want to wear anything, I say will influence your expectations. I personally am incredibly happy with all of the decisions and I think I don't think I think 3 & 5 are special episodes for me and I love them. I actually think episode 6 is that's next week is one of my favorite episodes again but but it's all good. I think. I don't think there's going to be any particularly anyway.

1:01:24 I can't say anything. Can I say Anything I say anything, I say, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's great. That's all I'm going to say hi. I think it's great. I'm very happy with all of it. Yeah, one scene that we have to talk about with five is the cul-de-sac holds a sex scene. The standoff between Kathleen Joel, Ellie Henry Sam. How were you able to create the balance between Joel in the window at the top of that the house you want, our Them down on the ground and then literally a swarm of infected that that's it was amazing to having the aerial view and then the close-ups.

1:02:04 But like how did that come together? Yeah. Well, so this is one where we didn't look at the game at all. Me, and Jeremy. That me and the director we were like, let's just let's approach this fresh because let's not get, you know, we, I know the game kind of inherently, but but I can't, I couldn't remember the exact geography of how that played out and then the action, As different as well from memory. But anyway, we were like, let's not look in the game. Let's just see what we need and and what happens and let's figure out how that will make sense because on a large-scale action sequence like that geography. Is everything the audience need to know like you say, Jones up here, the army of come from here.

1:02:45 The infected would come from here and you've kind of got three pretty clear directions there and so you need to you know, be loyal to that and it all has to work logistically. He said that that's always going to make sense and we're not going to get ourselves in trouble and I usually when talking about this scene and seems like this in general, think about sports and in sports, you know, Super Bowl tonight, you've got one team are going that way at once him a going that way. And that makes sense, if a camera jumps to the other side of the stadium and the teams of swap sides, but it's not the end of a quarter, it's confusing. You know, if you see a replay from the other side it's like wait what, you know, And it's the same for drama.

1:03:27 It's the same for the audience you so that kind of crossing the line thing on a scale that big is so important. You know, I know that anytime Kathleen's going to look up a Joel, I want her to let camera, right? And anytime Joel was looking down at Kathleen, I want him looking camera left so fast just that law has to always be true. And so, yeah, we've got our model village with from art department, and we've got toy cars, and we've got toy models and we just go through because Bi bi bi, bi of. Where are they? How does Joel get to the house where, which house does the truck here? How far can the kids run? All of these things? And we just had meeting after meeting after meeting and it would be usually, it would be me and Jeremy on our own like a mad, the coming up with, you know, we think this but then you've got to go to Art department and say, can you build this, does this make sense, then we've got to go to stunts and say, This we think we've got 100 meters for them to run. How far away does the truck needs to be what speeds it needs to be going to go through the cars. How safe does it have to be?

1:04:36 So everyone has their input to everything and it just keeps pushing and pulling and more thin. And then you do a previous, you do all the shots and then that stage as well, we knew that the house the sniper's nest had to be. We couldn't build that on a soundstage and cheat the Window because it would have just disconnected so much. We knew that we wanted to be able to see what the horde, the fight, everything and have Joel in the same shot up there so that had to all be real. So that's a much more expensive way. Suddenly art Department have just built a real house, that's complete. Structural Integrity, climb up to the third story with a crew with all the cares and ton of weight up there and it's just a real house and you're just shooting out the window. And it all exists.

1:05:28 It's now listed on Zillow. Yeah, well they they pulled it off in can obviously in collaboration with the art department but that's how it was made because I think they made 16 houses and and we shot this. So yeah, I mean I've talked about this elsewhere but the story is there in outer Kansas City now about to escape, but they're not using their torches because they want to keep a low profile. So, Amazing cinematographer. It says nights on the page. It's Moonlight. That's all I've got. There's no there's no electricity out there. They haven't got torches. So I've got to do Moonlight on a naturalistic Last of Us feeling. It can't be werewolf movie moonlight which is a thing, right?

1:06:13 And it has to be over a huge expanse to ask me naturalistic moonlight over a huge expense and also we're shooting nights in Calgary where the wind can get up to 70 miles per hour. So I can't use big balloons, which is a what we do. Use a lot of the time, big helium balloons because when the wind gets up, they swing around, they've gotta come down, we can't shoot. So we actually had to kind of invent or come up with a lighting system that covered at that huge expanse and was essentially 400 really small skinny lights strung together. So the wind just passed through it. So there's no hungry emits hanging from. Crying, but if the wind comes along, it just passes through it.

1:07:00 Yeah, that's what we did. I basically took the concept of, if I was lighting a really small moonlit set naturalistically, and then times it by ten, and that's what we did. And then, yeah, then you've got the fire, you got the explosion which was practical did it once. Then you dig out the hole and then income, the infect it. And that was again a heat, a huge. During the day, every day, the stunt team were working with our And guy and rehearsing the day stunts. And really, you know, we had, we knew the big pieces that we wanted, but we also wanted all these little vignettes of just horrible things happening and Craig's brief to them was he just want didn't want to see anything he'd seen before. So he was they were always just trying to come up with something interesting and so there's one that I really like where a soldier is getting at.

1:07:52 He knows he's done and he grabs his own shotgun and shoots himself. Before they get him and it's just horrible and horrific, but Henry seen that before, you know, and something else we've never seen before is little tiny gymnast, clicker, come into play. Yeah, kick kid. Clicker was a big like secret because no one knew about that and it was just one of those things that talking about the world of the last of us and being like why the no kids you know, was a thing came up and then it was like, wouldn't it be cool if she found Refuge Huge and small space because she's so small but then kind of meets her match because there's also a small. I mean, it's such a great craic invention and then he, he wanted like a Blue's Clues t-shirt on her.

1:08:38 And it really was just a dark messed-up, and she was a contortionist. She was like, I think she's 12 years old, a contortionist gymnast and did all this freaky, weird, crazy stuff. Who's awesome? The second she tumbled over. That backseat. I was thought the same exact thing as early as I get out. Get out. No way. Yeah, it's like it's like you're in the middle of this giant, you know, scene of all these infected everywhere. But then this little kid clicker is like the creepiest thing you seem. You just like no it's happening. Oh man. I love that. I want to say that's the first kid infected we've seen, right?

1:09:22 Because I don't believe there was any in the game. I think say yeah and I think I don't want to speak for Neil Neil. Neil would have thought about this. I'm sure I can't remember why I don't remember. So I'm sure Neil would have an answer as to why there weren't or maybe there were and we didn't see them. I don't know. It's like he I'm certain he loved the idea. I mean genuinely this may be one of those things where Neil maybe said I've always wanted to do a kick liquor, let's do it with meals idea. Either don't know or can't remember towards the wrapping up of Episode 5. Hmm. The the scene in the hotel room, you did to kind of touch on that a little bit. I really liked how that scene was shot mostly with Ellie and Sam specifically. So you hadn't just the light coming from the lamp. I gave it such a closed in Intimate, feeling for them to really be able to talk about whatever they want even though their Guardians are right outside the other door. Yeah, it's just I mean beautifully shot and then obviously pinky or Thing that happens, the decision to stay on Ellie.

1:10:29 Mmm. After Henry, unfortunately killed himself because he had to kill Sam. And then showing the pole. Blood go bigger was so much more effective than the game because it just cuts to Black. Yes, I'm seeing having the camera just beyond LA to work like that. How was, how did that come about? Like, how long did you guys want to stay with that? Or I think for that reason. Room daytime. So the whole morning sequence we had a whole day to shoot that because we knew it was very important to get that, right? And there's big performances there from everyone every single one of them you know, we've got Kevon who plays Sam being a monster and doing all of that stuff. This is his first ever screen performance. He was a miracle.

1:11:19 I have no idea how we got so lucky with him. Like because working with kids under And onset is always a gamble. Anyway, let alone death and having never done it before so he was remarkable but we had to make sure we had all the time in the world for him to get it wrong if he did. And I was trying to figure out to get all that right, but he was incredible and then we've got Lamar who plays Henry just doing incredible. I think wonderfully subtle work like you know, he's doing In such big stuff with. So, such little movement, some words, I just he was incredible and Bella.

1:12:01 Do you know they're all just so good in that scene. So it was about blocking. It was about making sure that they're getting the geography made sense. There's a lot of action geography there because how they come through the door, we needed enough distance and then it was okay. Where did Joel and Henry fall asleep? And where was the gun? Because all of that stuff, has to make physical sense. So you've got to figure out all those Logistics to then let all the emotion live, you know. So yeah. Just a lot of time and planning and since your questions but your question specifically about how we covered it, we knew the whole kind of philosophy for this really is less is more with violence and so often reactions are more interesting than gratuitous violence and and really it was we were alive to possibilities that happened. And when we had done the gunshot, For him. There was some blood on the wall and this pool started to happen and we shot both.

1:13:01 So we shot one where blood was dripping from the wall or from the curtain and we shot one of the pool and we just knew that that might be useful as a way to really, you know, tell that story without showing exactly what happened and I would credit Tim and Kraig for their the edit their restraints for choosing The story is vote for being with Bella. I just think it's cut so well, I mean it was very moving to shoot it but I saw a rough cut of it on Jeremy. The directors iPhone like a week later and it made me cry. Just the of the rough cut on an iPhone.

1:13:42 It's like, fuck. And that was early days, you know, so they had even more time to fine-tune it. But Tim, our editor, who I can't really wear on Twitter that we just love each other because like, I just think he's so good. Because I've never really seen edits. So painfully that the, the one sort of like comparison. I put to him is like the Beatles. Big praise in a beetle beetle song, sounds like it's always existed like that, like, it's just it came that way, like it. You don't really feel the process of writing. It's like, that's the song and it's been plucked out of it was always there. That composition is so sort of It's like, he could not be any other way and Tim's edits feel like that. Like, they're so sort of, there's an inevitability to them.

1:14:33 They just feel so uneasy. It's like, you don't feel that every editors heavy hand you just sort of go. Well yeah that's it. And that's how I felt the first time I watched episode 3, I was expecting great scenes and things a bit rough and things a bit experimental. And there's always, rough cuts are usually rough, you know. But when I first saw Saw it, which was later in the process. It was just like it's impeccable. I couldn't fault it. There wasn't one usually as well in my head. I'm thinking I wish they'd use that take or I wish they'd use that shot or the way they've cut it. I think there's a better version, you know. Usually, I am thinking those things I never once. Thought that with him it was just like yeah, fuck that shot. You can't because it's so much better and this was one of those.

1:15:20 Yes. So so effective I think then the the amount of Emotion. That people are feeling with this show and the amount of violence that it's not showing. Yeah, with some shows that we've seen before, it's so effective. And it all comes down to all of those things because I don't think I've cried this much in a show before. Yeah, I'm not seeing much of the actual thing happening. I just know this happened. It's just it's so good saying. Yeah, so much about it is really Humanity, right? Yeah. Because while the infected Adar scary. It's the humans that were afraid of, but it's also humans that were morning and we're seeing that emotion just blaring on the screen that you can't help but like, be swept over by it and a great.

1:16:06 And I also think there's a piece of it where, you know, when we're watching Ellie, who's 14? See so much violence and see, so much bad in the world and we see how it's affecting her and how, but she still needs to continue on right in that final scene of episode 5 when there By the graves and she she puts the, was it a magic? What is that thing called? Yeah. The the price he paid thing writing the yeah. You know, she's going through some really huge things and I think those emotions are Universal, no matter, there's an apocalypse or not. Hmm, But it's one thing I love with Bella and Ellie is her strength as well. Like she's a girl, she's 14 and she says, you know, obviously she's everything you just said.

1:16:54 Said, but he also is like, which way is west, you know? Yeah. Like like we've got a job to do and we, let's fucking carry on and I love in episode 4 after she's just killed someone for the first time. She's the one who's like, I'm I'm fine. Don't worry about it, you know, and obviously, she isn't 100% fine, but she actually is sort of wiser than Joel in some ways. And it's sort of showing the, you know, He's doing a lot of the adulting in that scene which is really interesting. I think that how well she can compose herself and she's a 14 year old girl. And I heard actually Craig in the podcast, talk about this expression, that's that sums up.

1:17:40 Ellie, that's fuck you, tuck me in. And I just love that it's like perfect. It's between being a full adult, and being a child. There's this period. That's fuck you. Tuck me in and I see. Yeah, I love I love that fella place that I love that phrase. I guess I got is amazing. I think, you know, when you're writing for characters, you write for tricky, right? Children characters and you write teenagers or adults, but you kind of miss that period, and it was another writer. I think came up with the fuck you tuck me in. And he was like, that's Ellie and it makes perfect sense. I love it. It's great, it's so perfect. So, speaking of Bella and just like her greatness, Do you have any favorite memories from the set and being with the cast? Of course, other than Nick's giggle at a good piece of beef. That was a very good option, like honestly, such a wonderful experience of so many.

1:18:40 There's a real camaraderie, it felt like we were making something good and important and there weren't any assholes, you know, it was all very positive. Bella is extraordinary. I mean, she turned 18. During the shoot. And she's one of those actors who just makes it look so easy just like so I do. Yeah, it's very rare that you see that level of performance made to look so easy. Like we haven't found her performance in the edit this isn't which we're not coaching her to that stuff. She just Nails it. I mean, she's English, her accent, everything. It's an incredible and Kraig, you know, and again, she is wise Beyond her years.

1:19:24 You know, not in a patronizing way like she but she takes notes like, you know, you're just giving notes, like you're giving them to Meryl Streep, it's stuffed complicated, adult Concepts and she's like got it and she does it and it's just amazing, that's not normal. So I really yeah Bella was very special, the whole experience with Sam and Henry was very special because of the deaf element, it wasn't something I'd done before. So we had to two separate translators. We had CJ, who is a actor himself? Who's a deaf man, who worked as a kind of onset acting coach /, interpreter and a true.

1:20:07 Deaf interpreter, who you know, who could just go from sign language to English very, very quickly and smoothly. So seeing Jeremy direct. So you're looking at Kevon and you're looking at CJ and you're looking at The Interpreter who had a few of those that Whole thing was really interesting and really kind of beautiful and worked incredibly well. And it was, yeah, you know, fascinating to watch that really fascinating. I kind of hope more making of comes out because they haven't really shown that yet. But I witnessed some really amazing stuff happening with that. So I lot of fun memories there. One of the final questions. What do you want people to take away from watching The Last of Us?

1:20:50 Like what is your your hope that they get this or, you know, Well, yeah, I mean, I hope and I think it has done this. I think I just hope people are surprised and that it transcends. The genre, they thought it was, it's not really a zombie thing at all. It's a story about love, good and bad, you know, it's, it's romantic love. And it's ugly love, and it's everything in between it's about the relativity of evil. And that's a big thing in the last of us that one person's hero, is another person's enemy. Yeah. I just hope people continue to enjoy it and talk about it as they have. It's a real it feels to me like a real thing and people are very happy and excited about it.

1:21:34 And watching the reaction videos has been a bit of an addiction for me, because it's a new thing for me. I didn't really know they existed and as a filmmaker to be able to firsthand live watch. Someone react, you really all the conversations we have about. Are people going to get this? Does this make sense? Since this is going to move people, you just see it, unfiltered happen and work. And that's incredibly gratifying and and it's actually really been impressive. How thoughtful, so many of the audience are and you just see people on these reaction videos, putting it together and gar, they're setting that up.

1:22:14 And, you know, it's all it's all coming across. So, you know, that sort of answers our question, I just hope it carries on going as well as it has and people. Find it as as moving and important as I do so far five episode then and not a single one has not been good, so I'm very pretty sure it's going to do well and so not to step away from the last of us but we do want to know, I know you mentioned secret Invasion but what's on the horizon for you? You know where do you? What are you going to be working on next? I don't know. Yeah, I need a job. Basically, The Last of Us is like ruin me. Because how do you move on from this? How do you get another job?

1:22:58 How do you like my whole career? I've been fortunate at least for the last, like, 7 years or something. I've always gone up. Every job is gone up. I've I've stepped up a budget. I've stepped up quality, it's always got better. And with the last of us, I sort of am like, I had to get better than that. This is impossible. All right, it's incredible. So after that I did the Marvel series again, hard to be really So I'm in this weird, you know, incredible position where I'm just figuring out what I can do next and I sort of hope I do a movie, I just sides, then do a movie. I haven't done it. I've done one movie a couple years ago but and 15 movies before then, but that was just my journey into the industry a lot of low-budget movies.

1:23:42 So I've really got my eye out for a good movie. That all becomes about timing and luck, frankly. And like long-term my goal is to ludus. Really ambitious. I do want to shoot big budget, good movies. I think things like Blade Runner, 2049 Dune, the Batman, even I think it's possible. Now this year 200 million movie and treat it like a proper movie for grown-ups, even if it's genre and that's where I really would love to operate. I mean, you know, obviously everyone wants to do that but I I'm still on that path.

1:24:25 That I'd love to do that kind of thing. I've let the more I've worked in TV. The more, I realize how important it is to me that people watch what I do. I've done a lot of films that no one saw, and you sort of feel like, do they even exist? If no one watches it, it doesn't really count. So, I think it's about getting the biggest audience, possible, and giving them really good work and I think the last of us has been that. So, I think it's possible and now, I'm just trying to look for that on the movie side. So, Give me a job somebody. I know the last of us got renewed for season 2, so maybe, yeah. Maybe you can pick the the most heartbreaking episodes out of that one. And wow, there's a few.

1:25:06 All right. I mean ghost. Yeah, I mean I season to the hospice. I'd love to come back for. I think it's all just going to depend on timing who the directors are. Who knows, who knows? I'm still chatting to Craig every week, just about the release and what's going on and how exciting it all is, and and I don't really know anything. About season 2. There isn't already in the public. And yeah, I don't know. I am fascinated as to who they cast as Abby. I'm fascinated. How many flashback scenes? They are because we're going to have to bridge older Ellie and younger Ellie. Presumably, and the game did. That's a logistical thing. So crabill Beavis, think he'll figure it out. He'll he'll come up with some great twists and tweaks and I and yeah, I hope I hope, you know, it comes my way again, but I am definitely at peace with if I don't go back, if I can't go back, I'm very, very happy with what we did. We see someone definitely left your mark, but if you do get onto, you know, we're rooting for you. If you get season to hope, I'm obviously, I hope I did. Let's see, who knows, who knows?

1:26:15 Who knows when where, how long I had to move my family. I've got tickets to Canada for a year to be lost to us, which has a big, like, life thing. Say it depends how quickly they can get it all together. Like my, my kids Scott start school. I can't really great Canada for a year. I don't know. All these things will be a thing, so I'm just gonna yeah, it won't be the next thing I do. Because the time it takes to get these things going, it'll take a bit longer than that. So I definitely need a job before season 2 if I do, didn't do. So yeah, reading scripts. If. Yeah. Well, we're will definitely be keeping our fingers crossed for you to get that big budget film, because we know that you're going to bring Such amazing work to whatever it is.

1:26:57 Thank you. It's exciting. It's been really a joy to get to talk to you. Likewise thank you you gave us your Sunday evening. So we're grateful my pleasure. Thank you. And I took away your Sunday morning scheduling misunderstandings, that were all my own fault, so apologies, but it's been really great and I love what you guys did I do. Obviously it was the I think the episode 3 review is the first one I listen to you. That's where I was, and I thought it was and that wasn't Both of you, I wasn't even there. No, I know, but I did listen to episode 4 as well. So I heard you talk about how you watched and everything. And I think what you guys do is great. So yeah, keep doing it pretty much. Well, sending you all the well.

1:27:38 Wishes and all the best things. And again, just thank you so much for being here with us. This has been fantastic. And thank you. Hopefully, we can talk again. Likewise, I'm always around. Hit me up. Thanks for listening to a bite of artwork and editing by our own. Noah, be sure to follow us on Instagram and Twitter at a bite of pod and on Facebook at a bite of. If you have any questions recommendations or just want to say hi, you can contact us on a bite of pod.com, please be sure to subscribe rate and review to spread the word. See you next time on a bite of bye.