Doctor Who Ep8 'Empire of Death' Review & Reaction + Season Awards

0:00 Hello and welcome to the last ride in the TARDIS for a bite of, as always, your harbingers on this podcast, Noah and Derek. Derek is just waving for those of you that can actually watch this episode. So today we are finally digging into the finale of Doctor Who season one season 14. Whichever one you want to call it, it's a finale that I think is going to be talked about for a while. Russell T Davies 2 second go around for Doctor Who. So oh man, lots of thoughts Yes before we get into that normal housekeeping stuff, leave a review follow subscribe thumbs up comment ABO nibbles at Gmail Send us your favorite things Patreon it's pride month still support indie queer creators all right let's get into it OK, so. Spoiler alert, if you have not watched this episode, you're being alerted for spoilers.

1:04 Major spoilers. But let us officially take a bite of the season finale of Doctor Who. Empire of Death. Written by Russell T Davies and directed by Jamie Donohue. Soo Tech and his Harbingers release the dust of death upon the universe, disintegrating life on all planets. The Doctor, Ruby, and Mel escape in the TARDIS and must count on memories of the past to save the future. Ruby continues to unveil the identity of her birth mother and must look to a clue from another time for the answer. That's the episode. So going into the finale, I know it's hard to judge the finale because the episode prior The Legend of Ruby Sunday was so much, you know, so much laid on what the finale brought, right?

1:51 So seeing the whole series as a whole and your first full Doctor Who sees and watch through which yay, I I converted him finally. What did you feel? I I think my feelings are sort of all over the place. I very much loved the characters, love the Doctor, love Ruby Sunday, love her mother and and everyone. I think I'm trying to piece together like how all these episodes paint a picture and tell a story, and I think maybe I'm not seeing it because a lot of the questions and theories that we've had have not been answered or told are untrue in this season of the show.

2:34 So overall, I thought it was a lot of fun, but trying to figure out the full picture of what this doctor is. I'm still waiting with the big question mark. Yeah, I really liked it. I think, you know, it had all the makings of like a Doctor Who season. It was rather short, which that's like the biggest knock off I can give this season as a whole. I liked the Doctor and Ruby as characters. I think I still need to see them more together. That was the detriment to having such a short season and filming schedules and everything. But these two episodes, I actually really liked The Legend of Ruby Sunday, the way this episode, the finale picks up, I wish the first like maybe 5 minutes were the cliffhanger for the last episode.

3:16 So once everybody gets dusted, I think once we see Kate Stewart get dusted and Cherry and this is Flood and all that, I think that would have been a great cliffhanger for the last episode leading into what we get for the finale. Because this was about 10 extra minutes then most of the other episodes. So that was my one thing. I was like, oh, that would have been cool as like a lead in to the finale. As a finale as a whole. I think it gave us things. They were playing with us, right, the whole season. Russell T Davies likes to do this. And it was like, we know that you're going to give these things significance. What happens if it's not that? So it wasn't necessarily misdirect, but it was like, what if it was this instead of this? But before we get to the end of it, and I'm sure we both have different opinions or we liked it, didn't like it, I'm excited to talk about. We have not talked about this really since we watched it on purpose.

4:06 So real time working this out. Yeah, I do want to just comment on one thing that you said that I really strongly agree with, is that because they were like these very kind of adventurous episodes where like one of them was always in some insane amount of danger. We didn't get to say Ruby and the Doctor form that relationship. Apparently that happened off screen where they kind of fell in love with each other in the way that the Doctor and his companions do. So I I agree, I wish there was more screen time of them together, really kind of getting to know each other a little more. Yeah, I, I mean, the whole season has this big question, Who is Ruby Sunday? So, you know, we got to know her quite a bit. And we know this doctor, right?

4:48 And I don't want to say completely like, I don't believe it. Like I believe that they love each other and they're besties. And, you know, we all have those friends where it's like you meet them and immediately you're like, this person's my best friend. We get that. But I feel like for a show, and especially with how the show usually is, I want to be able to like, know these characters. So that way whenever some of these emotional moments happen, it's like, yeah, I feel it because I'm a person and I have empathy and I I can put myself in those shoes. But I really want to feel it because I know these characters. I'm invested, but emotionally invested. I'm not sure I'm 100% yet with these two together as a unit. Yeah, as a character, I love that Bright. I always want the Doctor and companion to be OK and to be the best they can.

5:32 But you know, that's like my major tick for this whole season. I want to know, I mean, this is going to sound silly, but I want to know more about Ruby's band, right? We met her in a band, She plays keyboard. We never got to see any of those skills pop out of her. And I think that's kind of a missed opportunity as well, that she's not only is she this orphan, but she's a musician. Yeah, one of my favorite scenes in this whole season was when she got to sing on the rooftop and like her actually playing and her being able to sing. I love that scene. I think it's beautiful. And it's cool to see these companions not just be a companion with the Doctor, but they have these talents and these things that they can bring outside of that, One of my favorite scenes. I I love that scene, but I agree. So let's talk about Suitek, right? Let's talk about the beginning of this finale. And so everybody gets snapped, dusted, Avengers level end game type stuff.

6:21 We get the revelation that Suitek has been on the TARDIS. We talked about this, we try to theorize, everybody did. Suitek has been on the TARDIS since the Pyramids of Mars. So 50 ish years just riding, riding the TARDIS and planting Susan's everywhere he landed. I think conceptually and as a plot, fantastic. I think that is insane. And he was the one that waited. He planted all of these, I guess you would call them dust bombs essentially, but didn't even just, you know, create this person created a full-fledged person that has family's history and is a a different type of person everywhere they go. I think it's great in this finale. I think the Ruby stuff worked for me. The SU tech stuff, I was a little underwhelmed and I don't, I'm obviously we're not going to talk so much about things we didn't like because I think there's a lot we did. Like I just wanted a little more like Suitek was just on the TARDIS the whole time, visually amazing. I just wanted a little more from him. Yeah, I I was interested in Suitek as a being in the sense that it seemed that Suitek himself didn't have a lot of power, right?

7:38 It felt like, why wasn't he the one delivering the dust? He had all these harbingers do it. And then even in those final moments where like Ruby and the Doctor are there, he doesn't do anything to stop them. Why can't he kill them? Well, I think I think it's one of those things where it's like all of that is his power. He's just not literally the one like putting his hand out. So it's like, you know, he's destroying all life throughout all of time, everywhere the the Doctor is. I think without and without fully seeing him do that, it's it's easy to like separate him from that power. But I would say that is his power. I just he was just on the TARDIS all the time. You know, I just like get off of it like you already have it.

8:20 You Harvard your hazard. Get off of the TARDIS. He's just real creaky. He's just been on it for decades, so that's all he knows is just to be hugging the TARDIS the entire time. One of my favorite things since that is everybody was going back and thinking about things the TARDIS has done or situations and was like Suitec was there when it happened. Suitek was there when Amy and Rory made River Song. Suitek was there in the 50th anniversary when all of those Tardises were there. So I just love the thought of all of these Suiteks just looking at each other like. As a long time fan of Doctor Who, how do you feel about these sort of things that you thought were defeated but were actually are now actually coming back as a villain? I think it's fine.

9:02 I think it's smart to do it with Classic Who because I don't have as much of A connection with Classic Who. Then I do since 2005 because that's what I really watched. I remember Classic Who and bits and pieces and when stuff like this happens, I'm like OK, let me go re watch that. I think it's fine. I think it's cool to bring them back and show them in a new light because the technology is different. They can do so many different things. Like Suitek looks cooler now than he did that. Like the person in the Suitek cultural appropriation outfit couldn't hardly move. So that's why he was like sitting there for like 90 minutes in that episode. So I, I think it's cool. I I like when they do that. Yeah, I mean, as someone who isn't as familiar, I thought it was kind of a cool thing, a retro kind of throwback, but updated, completely unexpected, right? I think that we were given the missus flood thing throughout the season to wonder about, and it wasn't her as the main bad in this at all.

9:59 And so to have Suitec appear, it was definitely a bit of a bait and switch. And like you said before this, that kind of seemed like a little bit of a theme, a lot of the things that were happening in this season. Yeah. So one of the things that I thought was interesting, right. So I love that it's the Doctor, Ruby ML kind of floating in space, watching all of the Suns and planets turn to dust, having the three of them there in this memory of a TARDIS, which is just basically like a Easter egg filled TARDIS, which is so fine. What seeing all the different accessories, all the different screwdrivers and things like that. But the Doctor has this moment where he's putting the blame on this, on himself and he kind of has a little bit of a breakdown. It's like 3 people in a small room with one of them having a breakdown.

10:43 It's a lot happening, a lot of energy. I kind of felt like that was a bit of a jump for him. You know, he was like, because I was having fun, I ended up destroying all these worlds. But I was like, Doctor, keep it together, bro. Like you need to write this if you really think it's a wrong. I didn't think he needed to take the blame so much. It's the Doctor though, like I mean, he you know, he got upset when he they were going to kill the boogie man, right? And space babies. He gets upset at the end of this when he knows that he is going Suitek is going to win because he has to become what Suitek is by killing Suitek, which I will say like Doctor, like he literally killed all life in the universe.

11:23 So like, this is OK, but it is very much in character for the Doctor to feel like because I was just having fun and I didn't know. I should have known. I brought all of this death and all of this stuff to everybody in all the space and time. So like, I get the character reason of like this is my fault, but being the Doctor, he picks himself up when he needs to. But I love those small moments. Like, I think he does need those moments to show that the Doctor truly does care. Who else is there to blame? He's the one that stole the TARDIS originally. He's the one that was going everywhere. And I did like the line of. I was just having fun. Yeah, I do think the Doctor and I have different definitions of fun. A lot of his fun from what I have seen is life or death situations.

12:15 I would love an episode of the Doctor and Ruby just going to some sort of beach planet and getting like in a volleyball tournament. You know, every time they do try to do that, they try to go to resorts, they try to go to paradise planets. It's never. OK, there's always something bad lurking, isn't there? Yeah, I remember a long time ago people were like, does the TARDIS or the Doctor know that something bad is happening there and he's going there to try to help? It's one of those theories of like, because every single place he goes and most of the time the adventures that are just mundane and boring, we hear about, we don't see. So it's one of those things if like in a week, three of the adventures are life or death, but most of them are fine. So it's like that's the only thing we're allowed to see.

12:56 But picture this Chuti Gatwa in full Top Gun volleyball moment. Yeah, right. Great. Come on. Yeah, I mean, we saw Barbie. We, we need it. Yeah, we need it. Season 2. Come on. So with everybody dusted, everybody in the memory TARDIS, the last beings that are there, which I thought was really cool because the memory TARDIS is Tales of the TARDIS. This is a TARDIS or a kind of like special where it has past doctors and past companions. They're in this TARDIS and they reminisce about their adventures. And now it's Canon. Now it's like a thing that happens and I love that. It was like still kind of bigger on the inside, but not quite as big.

13:36 So it was just like just enough. I can't even begin to name off all the Easter eggs, all of the things from past memories of the Time Lord, but just a few that I wanted to point out. So who won? We got to see the license plate for Bessie, the, the, the amazing automobile for the doctor. Mel, she got to see her doctor's outfit. She was clutching the question mark jumper. It was really sweet. I love that moment for Mel because Sarah Jane, they actually play. Sarah Jane had sadly passed away and we did get to see her for the periods of Pyramids of Mars, but it was nice to see an older companion be there and there. One thing that I will point out is that 13's, their TARDIS, like they had these like things. It was the fireplace.

14:19 Yeah. Or I, I just really loved it. I loved that TARDIS. It did give me anxiety because there's so much everywhere, but it was amazing. And also the fact that the moment that they stepped into it, things were like blowing up and going on fire. It was, it was a lot of it was hectic moments and you're so distracted by what they need to do to save themselves. But at the same time trying to pick out all those little details. I'm sure like if you really just stop and paused it you'd be able to find like 100 other Easter eggs. Oh, there's videos, I'm sure there's probably like a Reddit post of like every single type of thing. Go find those. Yeah, yeah, I'm sure they're out there. I. Love to see it, yeah. So we have everything destroyed, Suitec 1 essentially, and some time has passed and we only know that because we're told that and the Doctor appears on this planet and meets the kind woman.

15:07 And we knew that there was this woman called the kind woman from the cast list from Russell T Davies. Teasing the episode, he said there is a kind woman. I was very interested to see what this character meant. And I really think we need moments like this because everything gets destroyed so quickly, and we need these moments to kind of sit with that destruction because it's one thing for everything to get destroyed and then the solution right away, What's the point? Like, where are the stakes in that? But for him to go to this planet and talk to this woman and to see that how this, like death works is that it can also work backwards. Kill your children so that way you die twice is so upsetting.

15:48 I'm not going to lie. Got a little teary? Yeah, I think that the performance by Sean Clifford, who you should know as Claire from Fleabag, you haven't watched Fleabag. Go watch Fleabag. It's incredible. She got her hair back. She got her hair. Back. She doesn't have that that severe French cut that she got in Season 2, but she does a really great job of bringing this character to life who we're only really meeting for these few minutes. This episode felt like two different halves or two different questions being answered, right? The first question felt like, how are we going to destroy Suitec? The second question is, who is Ruby's mother, right? So in this first one, it feels like kindness is a message here, right? In that even if a stranger is approaching you for help, if you can look into their eyes and see kindness, then you should reach out and help them, right?

16:42 And so even with the the small offering of a metal spoon, that helps to save the universe. Because metal is a rarity. Yes. But he he says something. She says something like metal is very precious. And he says I don't think anything's precious anymore. And I was like, when everything is dying, nothing is precious anymore. It doesn't matter. Yeah, I that was like, woof. The the moment that really got me was when she was like, I think my, my child died and I forgot. That's so upsetting. You know, I will say like, no matter what you feel about REL CT Davies as like a story long or season long writer, he really shines in moments that are so grounded.

17:26 This one and the coffee, the cafe scene, which we'll get to later were fantastic. They're really big standout scenes for me because, again, I feel like we need these scenes to really sit with this destruction and what does it mean? And the fact that it's not only killing people, but it's killing facts, it's killing memories, It slowly gets to you, and then you wither away into nothing. That's terrifying. Yeah, it's, it's almost as if it's some sort of dementia, right, Where you're existing, but you don't remember anything around you. And so you're trying to piece your life together, but those pieces aren't even there. Yeah. So this scene, although it, it felt like, where is it coming from? I think that it did its job, yeah. He needed a spoon to save the universe. He sure did.

18:12 Just a little piece of metal. I love it. I this is so Doctor Who, right? And I'm so curious. I mean, I guess I can ask this to you, but you know, just kind of out there on the Internet for somebody that's like not used to Doctor Who and no sci-fi as like the Star Wars thing, right? It's like typically the thing to defeat is like an action or like a weapon or something like that. And in Doctor Who, a lot of times it's like such a simple ordinary thing or just like talking through the solution. So how did you feel about like a spoon? Because it needed the the screen that they have needed something real to power it. And So what did you feel about that? What did you feel about like using the whistle? Well, first I want to say that I loved that screen.

18:56 I thought that was so cool. When he used the screwdriver to pop it out of the old boob tube. I thought that was like, you know, retro iPad. It was very cool. I liked it a lot. I like that the thought of there are simple solutions to things to save us, right? And so I think that was really illustrated here. I think for me, the talking, that's where I get lost sometimes he's talking and I don't, I'm like, what is he getting AT? And a, a big part of Doctor Who is that he knows what he's talking about, but nobody else knows what he's talking about. And so he's just like saying a lot of things and you're watching him run around and I'm going, I don't know what's happening.

19:41 So that part I find confusing. Most of the time they don't either. Like the companions a lot of times, like one of my favorite ones, especially Donna Noble, did it a lot. And she's like, what? Like, yeah. Can you just like, say it? Normally it's like, that is the thing, right, of Doctor Who is very like, frantic. And it's very like I'm getting all these things out because I'm working it out in real time. Yeah. I mean, I think that's that's reasonable. That's like the nature of the show. Yeah, it like even like that one scene before when they first got into the memory TARDIS and it's blowing up. And he's like, wrap this around there, pull that lever, do this, do that. It's like what is happening? Yeah, you know. But he knows. But the companions and us as the audience, we have no idea. Just do what he says, yeah? So I'm always just kind of like hanging on and waiting to see what is actually going to happen.

20:26 Right, right. I'm like, oh, OK, OK, OK, you. Have to wait for it to come to fruition so one of the things that Ruby's mystery is very integral to this right We find out that the reason why the doctor Mel just kind of cuz she's there and Ruby haven't been killed is because the mystery of her mother has perplexed everybody like the God of death this being that can destroy everything doesn't know the answer to this question. We are Suitek. Suitek is US. Basically, he's watching Doctor Who and he's trying to figure it out. And he really wants to know because he's been riding on this TARDIS this whole time. And he's like, I can't, I can't see this. I can't, I can't understand this. And so one of the things is they feel like the key to this is to find out who her mother is.

21:17 This is where like so 73 yards gets mentioned. 73 yards as an episode kind of plays a role in this, right? We know who the the Prime Minister is, right? We know who William is. We know the 73 yards. We find out that SU Tech used that 73 yards perception filter of the TARDIS to make the Susans to change the reality around it. Now with the episode of seven or three yards, I think that story never, never happened. Meaning like her loop closed. Where the doctor went, I don't know, but it was like her thing. But he defeats or he does the stuff with the Prime Minister in the current timeline because he knows this.

22:00 He already knows what's going to happen. But I did think it was interesting that she still retains some of those memories of 73 yards. And I'm not sure what significance that holds, but it was interesting that he was like, how did you know it was 73 yards? And she's like, I don't know. Yeah, I have no idea. I. You know what, Doctor? Don't question that. She's good at math. How about that? He's like, how'd you know that? She's like, I don't know. She doesn't know math. She's a she's a musician. She doesn't do math. No, she was left at the church. I don't know math. It was ridiculous, but I, I think it's interesting in trying to again, it's, it's a bit of a, a mind fuck because you're like, did it happen? Did it not happen? How does she know?

22:42 How does she not know? Do pieces of you and other universes exist in yourself when you appear in that universe? You know, I don't know. Don't overthink it. No, it's impossible. Yeah, I'm, I'm a doctor. I'm just saying stuff out loud until I get the answer. I feel like you can't overthink it, but I feel like, you know, there is some significance that that maybe we don't know yet because we know that Ruby's story isn't over yet. So I'm curious to see what part that plays in it going forward. I do like that in this memory TARDIS, a lot of the actions to solve these problems have to come from their past experiences, even in the sense of the glove from their first meeting, reappearing again, and then this magical rope, which is like the glove. Yeah, a bungee cord.

23:31 The scene where they go to 2046, I believe is the year to use that prime minister's like mandate, the registry of DNA and all of that, which is like kind of weird, not a great thing. But Bonnie Langford really shined in this moment. I feel like with her succumbing to the influence of suit tech, being outside the room while they're trying to figure it out. I felt like for most of this episode, she was kind of there, but she really shined in that moment and she did the purpose right. She was supposed to betray the doctor and Ruby and be a, you know, an agent in there. I thought it was really cool. I thought she really knocked it out of the park with that scene. What did you feel about the whole bait and switch? That they knew something was happening to her and they just wanted to get closer to Zu Tech to take him on a walk? Well, first I thought it was sad because really, she died and he took her over as a harbinger, which is, you know, kind of heartbreaking when you think about it, because we kind of fell in love with Mel again through this entire thing. I appreciated it because in my head I was like, you know, the doctor has to know what's going on. And sure enough, he did.

24:38 So I was glad that the doctor realized what was going on because she was acting so differently, you know, And so whether or not he felt how cold she was, you could just tell that something was off about her. And so I was glad that he was able to see that as well. The it's, it's so much like Russell T Davies to defeat this God of death by taking him on a walk. Yeah, through the time vortex. And then I was trying to figure out, right, so, so the Doctor uses a whistle to call the TARDIS. Does the TARDIS also a dog of some sort? Also some sort of pet. No, it just works that way. It just answers to remember. He he found that whistle in the memory TARDIS. So it's something that's like directly connected to it.

25:18 So I feel like while it is funny that it's like, oh whistle, there's a dog on the TARDIS and the TARDIS is the one that responds, not the dog. It's hilarious. The scene with Suitek. I just want to point this out because visually, this whole season, especially this episode, stunning, it looks amazing. But the scene that I just love, and I think it's so terrifying and it's so cool and it really speaks to Suitek as a character, is when they're in the time window and he turns the TARDIS around so he can't get through those doors and he still clutches it. So it's that like possession thing, It's that paranoia. It's that this is mine. I won. Oh so good, but bad for him because they turned the doors the other way. So when that shooting thing happens that apparently the TARDIS has a beam of energy like that go straight through the crotch.

26:05 Yeah, and and blasts through Harriet's face as well. RIP. Sorry, Harbinger. I want to know also, like my question is, 'cause I'm not entirely sure. Are harbingers just regular people that succumb to the pantheons? Whatever. Because there was that little boy with the maestro and they disappeared. But then at the end of the episode during the dance number, like there's always A twist at the end he was back and he like looked through the door. So I'm curious like are they real people or are they just like manifestations of the pantheon member? I think that they're real people that have been taken over by the Pantheon member.

26:47 And because I think it's Sue that says something like finally you can kill the Time Lord and the girl and then you can end our like petty little half lives that we're living. So they're half alive, half dead. But so then that brings me to the point of Harriet's the only one that actually dies and suitek because Harriet's not there at the end. Because no one loved her. Well, I'm but you know what I'm saying? So it's like, that's weird. Does the TARDIS laser negate you coming back to life? Well, I guess her physical form was destroyed. Yeah, by the laser. Yeah, right. Whereas Sue and Mel were not killed. Right, it's just funny to me that like the doctor did this whole speech in the time vortex of like I am now becoming death. I am the thing you've won in this aspect. And like Harriet died and there's no mention of like if this person was innocent.

27:43 It's like RAPI just find it funny because like they tried to build these stakes, right? And this isn't one of the other ticks I'll give this this episode is that as soon as everybody in UNIT died and dusted Cherry and Missus Floyd and Carla, all of them, I was like, OK, they all come back. Like the stakes of people dying just was like negated once everybody kind of bit it. I just find it funny that like all of them died, came back but Harriet is just like no mention. Everyone forgot about Harriet. Yeah, unless Harriet's doing something bad somewhere else. Is it one of those things? Why would she do that if she's a normal person is my thing. I just need to know if these harbingers are actually like Sue where they make these full people but they can be activated by the God, or if they're not. I'm just curious.

28:34 Tyson. Called Russell. Figure it out. Right. We'll never know, so let's talk about walking the dog. OK, So what did you think about this scene of pulling him on the TARDIS through the vortex? I thought it was. Silly. I thought it was great. I loved it. Like, I have no issue with it because of course. Yeah, they found a way to call back the first episode with Ruby and the Doctor. They use the intelligent rope, the intelligent gloves that he brought him back into the time vortex because that's where he wanted to be anyway. And he's like, let's bring you back. Now. Apparently two negatives do make a positive.

29:15 I don't get it, but I do get it. It's like, oh, he brought death to death. He killed death. So therefore what's left after that life, if not nothing? Because death is nothing. I feel like if you kind of try to piece it together, it's like it works. Like let's hand wave that. It's, again, it's a very Doctor Who thing where the doctor just says something and it is scientific law. Well, it worked, right? He's like Ruby. What happens when you bring death to death? You make life. She's like. She's like, I, I guess you're right because it's happening, you know? And and I just kept thinking I'm like, OK, well, when you multiply 2 negative numbers, you get a positive number. Yeah. So there you go. Yeah, exactly. Two wrongs do make a right.

29:58 See. So if your enemy does you wrong, you do wrong to them. And then if everyone's happy. I do have to say though, during this, Shootie gave a fantastic performance. I love these are like the Doctor speeches. These are the moments where it's like, I just love the Doctor. Like I love that he can put together these strings of words or what this stuff means. I know it's the writers, but like the doctor delivering it. And I do feel for him in this aspect because one of the things I love about the Doctor and he says it and he's like, I pride myself in being life. I'm supposed to be this thing like if you're deaf, I'm this opposite thing. And he always strives to be that.

30:39 He tried to save the people and find time even though he knew what they were. So like, that's who the doctor is. And for him to even be upset that he has to kill Suitek, which I will say this is probably like the only person that you should be like, fine, I get where he's coming from. It's like a very big moment for the doctor. And he does it kind of gracefully. He just closes the door and Suitek made his bed and he laid in it. Do you think he's actually dead? No. I think he is. I don't want him to come back. I mean he probably could cause what is it the the toy maker said my legion is coming or something like that. So like is the toy maker the head of the pantheon or one of them? And Suitek kind of has to be along with that. Does the embodiment or the God of the thing actually die, or does it just change into something else? How do you kill a God?

31:29 I don't know. I don't know either. We haven't seen it until Suitek so I don't know. Is he just sprinkled through time now? Or maybe he's just like some sort of like withering bat dog and then they'll kind of someone will come and bring him back to life again where he can bring death. Once Upon the universe. So any final thoughts on Suitek? No, no, yeah. I mean, I, I will say, you know, I said in the beginning that I was a little underwhelmed only in that, like, it was cool. I think the idea was cool. I just like, I don't know, like some, I don't want to say the word is underwhelmed because I very much enjoyed it and I got it. I just feel like it was just missing something. Maybe to me it was, oh, the stakes are going to be reversed like immediately.

32:15 I again, I wish that first part wasn't the last week to give us time to really sit with it. Even though we got the kind woman seen, we got to stay with the consequences of death taking over. It just felt like we needed a little more stakes, not killing somebody, but. It almost, it almost feels like the opposite of my kind of critique of the season as a whole in the sense that now we got too many of the down moments and not enough of the action, and this last fight didn't really feel like a fight. What are you talking about? No one fought. Ruby smashed the screen. She fought. There you go. She fought Mavity and she won. OK, there you go. I do want to say though, like before we leave Suitek, I love that moment.

32:59 That is like a companion moment for Ruby to know, I guess. Know who her mother is, not understanding it. Going along with these plans of the Doctor and facing up to a God and being like you're the God of nothing and then smashing the only thing that he can get the answers for. I loved that. Go Ruby. I enjoyed in these final scenes that the Ruby and the Doctor were doing Lara Croft cosplaying. They were. They sure were. They took off their cute little jumpers and everything, and they just put on some utility pants and T-shirts. Oh yeah, this is the season for all the types of outfits, whatever they're doing, so of course they're going to be ready for war. They sure were. They must have found those duds in that memory.

33:41 TARDIS. I loved it. All right, so moving on to the review, the mystery of the season, literally since the conception of these two together, who is Ruby's mom and what does all mean? So her mother is a regular, ordinary person. What did you feel about that revelation? What do you feel about the aspect of she was only so important because we put importance on things, we made it significant. What did you feel about that? I think that in a show like this, it's very tough when the payoff doesn't necessarily fit the what we've all been thinking. Give me more.

34:31 We've been, we're living in this science fiction zone where we're cloaking this person in so much mystery and it feels like almost like a let down that it wasn't anyone with more power or any other sort of being, you know, because we were fed so much about Ruby being some sort of magic being some sort of music. Where does she come from? You know, who is it? Even if it was like a new God, you know, So that felt like a let down. I will say though, that again, the message I think is beautiful. Right, Right. It's very much along the lines of the spoon. It's saying that although we are just regular people, one in 76 million, we're still special to someone. There's a famous line from the 11th Doctor where he talks about, you know, ordinary people and everything like that. And he's like, I've never met somebody that wasn't important. So that is something with the Doctor, right? That this, the theme running through the 60 plus years that Doctor Who's been around is that companions themselves become important people.

35:39 They've always been important people, but they're important because they are important. I think, you know, it's almost like taking a page out of like Donna and Opal's book is that, you know, something that she always said she was, you know, she's a temp. She's like not special. She is special. And she, it took her a while to see that. I liked it. I think I'm more in the boat of like, at first, you know, we had fun, right? We were theorizing we were doing all this stuff like, could she be this? Could she be that? Whose companion's child is she? I think that it would have made it too complicated and weird if it was something, you know, the the pantheon aside, somebody's that we news child. I think it would just make it too complicated, right. I feel like we're not done with it, mostly because Russell D Davies said so.

36:28 We don't know who her father is. We kind of know why it snows, but we kind of don't know why it snows. I feel like there's still something more to her. Agreed. But the fact that her mother is an ordinary person is like, fine with me. I do have one little tiny issue. They really hammed in that it was like somebody something, right? And I get it. But like, I don't, I feel like they messed with us a little too much. And it was one of those things where it's like they knew we would think these things and it was like the whole time you made it important. And so it was important, but it turns out she was just her mom. And it's like, I guess like you, you got us with what they were thinking, right?

37:16 We were the doctor and Sue Tech. We were everybody. We made it so important and it was just, you know, it was what it was. Yeah, and I just kind of touching on the hamming it up thing of, you know, the cloaked woman pointing so strongly at the doctor and it just turns out she was pointing to the road sign. That is the one thing like cloaked fine, I don't care, you know, she's 15. 2004 Where'd she get that cloak? I mean, it was like Hot Topic emo central. She got it from Hot Topic or somewhere. That's fine. You know, I, I really do feel like because the doctor said like it's changing and thing keeps changing and I'm curious if it was changing because they all kept adding to the mystery. They all kept saying like, we don't know, we don't know. And it just kept adding to it.

38:03 Who knows? Who knows how this time window stuff really works. Yeah, the pointing thing, that's the only thing where I was like, OK, like, that was a step too far. Like, that just doesn't make any sense to me. Like, yeah, maybe the person picking up Ruby Saul. And she was like, I wouldn't know what that meant. I honestly thought she was named Ruby because the church on Ruby Rd. is like the name of the special. And I thought, like, Oh yeah, she was named Ruby because that's the road. That's where they found her. Yeah, and it turns out that is why her name is Ruby. It was just nice to know that, like, OK, her mom named her, so that's nice. Yeah. Yeah. The pointing thing, I'm like, OK, fine. But I just love the memes of everybody. Like, good thing she wasn't born here.

38:44 And they put like, they show a street sign from that name or that place and it's like, not good. Yeah, if if it was my childhood, she'd be 133rd Ave. so. I'd be Adams St. Well, Adams at least, is good. Adams as a first name is weird. They're like, oh, it's a little more special because there's an S on the end. It's pluralized. So many. Adams. OK, I have a question. OK, if you found out who your birth mother was after being, you know, away from her for 20 years and you had the opportunity to say, hey, I'm. I'm your baby, would you have done it? I don't know. I mean, yeah, I, I think a lot of this, if Ruby didn't have the support system that she did, I think it might have been a different, like I, I don't know. I, I, I just want to say, I don't know. But I think with her, with Carla and Sherri being so loving and supporting and like, yeah, if you want to find your birthday mother, we'll help you and all of this stuff and encouraging it.

39:47 I probably would, right? It's like if you could finally get the answers. I do find this whole situation. So when they finally find her, when they find her mother in the cafe, and this is where it's interesting with the doctor, right? I feel like it's he has this weight of Susan over his head, his granddaughter, like he hasn't gone back to see her. And I feel like he was putting his fears on to Ruby in this situation. I don't know if the you know, he tried to make it reason with you know, you found her via time machine, like she had 7000 whatever days to come find you and she didn't. When she did try, she did try to find her. She just couldn't. So I think it was a good choice for Ruby to go and find her and I love the way she did it.

40:33 It was, it was kind of clever and it just was a such a sweet scene. Her being like, Oh, if I tell the barista my name, they'll call out my name. She sat right across from her. I loved that moment. Another teary eye moment. It was very 20240 cappuccino. And then she's waiting for the barista to call her name. I I did. I had a problem with the doctor trying to stop her. Personally, I thought this whole season you were trying to help her figure out who her mother was, and now you do. And now you're telling her not to. And I think it bothers me when rule Breakers want others to follow the rules. And sometimes I feel that with the doctor right, he's a bit of a rule breaker. He can change laws if he wants.

41:16 To well, he's still the TARDIS to begin. With exactly. And then yet he's standing there and he's like, oh, this has been your lifelong dream. You shouldn't do it right. You know, so that I kind of feel like me the wrong way. Yeah, I feel like he was trying to protect her when he should let her make her own decisions, right. I don't think it's like he didn't do it out of like bad reasons. I think he was just being he's projecting onto her what he feels and then also was trying to protect her. That's that's what I would say because there's a moment like after he sees them hugging and like it's OK that he kind of was like, oh, could this be how the reunion is with my granddaughter? It could be why don't you just go see her? Like I feel like because of Susan being named Susan SU Tech doing this all on purpose, if in the near future he doesn't go actively try to find Susan, I'm going to be very frustrated. These are all signs, right?

42:05 But. Find her. What we learned over this season is that even though the signs are there, doesn't necessarily mean we're going to get it. I mean, OK, so let's let's go to like what was answered, what wasn't answered, right? A lot was answered. I feel like at least like the main mystery of like who is Ruby? Where did she come from? Or at least half of it, right? We did get her father's name, which was like William Garnett I think was the last name. No idea who he is. So she's Ruby Garnett. Oh. Two Reds, two gemstones. Yeah, Interesting. Cool. I didn't even notice that she's very powerful. I mean, like, that is the last name. Correct me if I'm wrong. Listeners and watchers, I'm pretty sure that is. So let's go to the final shot, right? So let's do the farewell and Missus Flynn. The farewell I thought was sweet. Those are moments where when the time comes for a companion, either by choice or not by choice, is very sad. We know Millie is going to be back. So I think with knowing that almost a detriment to the scene because it's like, Oh well, you'll be fine. Like you guys are going to see each other. I think it was smart for the Doctor to be like, go like, enjoy your story, like you got some answers, go enjoy it. I think that's very smart and a good thing. Her being so upset, OK, We just know she's coming back. So I felt like, oh, this was very sweet and is really well done.

43:33 But it's fine. Yeah, they'll see each other. I again, I think because we didn't get the emotional resonance of seeing them build their relationship through these adventures, them saying goodbye to each other wasn't as impactful as I think they wanted it to be. And I think that he could have hung out for a little bit. She's like, you're my best friend, like my mom now knows everything about you. I want you to hang out with her. And he's like, bye. Yeah, I mean, she said. You don't do that, right? He doesn't do that. Rose's uncle is hanging out in the somewhere. Right. He's allowed to because this doctor exists. But that, that is the thing. That's why that moment is so like big because the doctor doesn't stay. And that doctor finally did.

44:20 I do. I was hoping he would stay just a little bit. But that's what makes me think that because we don't know who her father is. And we know from SLT Davies talking about the special and talking about what's to come, that there are more revelations for Ruby to come. So I'm curious if there's a reason why he's not there, because then it would be too obvious. I don't know. Yeah, I'm very curious about that. But I did like how they were wearing their outfits, their little Christmas outfits, the same ones that they had in the first adventure. And this one is a nice little bookend moment. Yeah, very sweet. OK, Missus Flood, this, this broad is driving me crazy because I don't know. I don't know if she's good. I don't know if she's bad. I don't know if she's in the middle. There's moments where when she's talking to Sherri in bed and she's like, can I have a cup of tea? And she's like, do you believe in God? Like, dear, Jeez.

45:12 And she's like, tell your maker that I'm going to bust down his, you know, golden gates or whatever. Terrifying. Yeah. Also she had plans and then we see her on the roof looking like a a a Mary Poppins. Snow Angel. Yeah, it was snowing, which is interesting. So we know that the snow happens or they said it happens because the memory of Ruby was so powerful that it's just coming through right next to the explanation we got. I feel like there has to be more, right? If Missus Flood is making it snow. Was she always doing it the whole time? I'm curious, I I need to know who she is because people online have pointed this out. I don't want to take credit for this. People online have pointed it out that in the scene with Sherri, she's wearing an outfit that looks very much like Carla or Clara Cheese.

46:03 I'm getting the the names mixed up too. Similar, but it looks like Clara Oswald the 12th companion and then in this one looks like a past companion as well. Ramona wore that same exact outfit. Yes, it was that fuzzy. And then the umbrella makes me think very much Missy slash the master. She also had a suitcase, it looked like she was holding a suitcase. She travels. So my theory is here we go is that she is a forgotten companion who has been waiting to get her revenge on him, leaving her behind. Does it? Is it really revenge truven though like? Did you see how he just leaves you heartless after he put your life in danger? I think that is interesting.

46:46 I think that because he doesn't know a lot about his lives before, like, the show technically started with 13's run really changing the lore, right? He's a timeless child and doesn't know all the lives that they had. I guess maybe, yeah, it could be some type of companion that was lost. I know that there's this theory floating around that, you know, maybe she's the God of stories because the way she narrated the end was very much like a children's book. And she at the end, she says night, night. Yeah. And she also says that he's going to have a terrible fate, basically. Oh yeah, I have no idea. I'm I'm very excited. I think it was very smart to plant the seeds of who is Misses Flood kind of forgetting about her and then bringing her back in this way. I think it's very smart.

47:34 Yeah. So I guess final thoughts on the finale before we give out our ABO kind of awards for this season. Things that we want to say you're like are the best or a favorite. Things just kind of reflecting back on the season final thoughts. Final thoughts are there are a lot more questions than answers and so I find that frustrating as as a season as a whole, I liked getting to find out who Ruby's mother is. I'm looking forward to more adventures, but yeah, I think we mentioned a couple of clunky things along the way, but I think that this episode answered two big questions and that's enough for now. Or at least mostly answered them.

48:15 And then they were like, by the way, her father, it's like, oh shit, yeah, I forgot. We were talking about her mom the whole time. We forgot that she probably is a father. I also love that her name, Louise Miller, is like the most generic name. Miller has a last name, you know, it's yeah, it's just amazing. Sorry anybody's last name is Miller, but you know, it's like Smith. I feel like it's as akin to Smith or whatever. Yeah, I think this season was different and being that story wise, or they were trying new things, no classic villains at all, which I think was really interesting. And for that I have to commend them on still making such an engaging season with it still feeling like Doctor Who.

48:56 I'm just really looking forward to hopefully a season where the companion and Doctor a little more together. Yeah, because I think with knowing that he was filming other things and shootie, it was a detriment almost. I still feel like the episodes were enjoyable and great, but just as like a love and connection with the characters. I just need more screen time. Just a little more screen time. I'm with you all. Right. Should we get to our superlatives? Yes, let's say some favorite things. All right, so we are going to and also listeners slash watchers, feel free to give us your answers to these. So he came up with some categories. OK, first category, favorite episode of the season.

49:36 And in these parameters we're only doing the episodes that started with and shooting. So the giggle does count for any of these categories. Just putting that out there. So what is your favorite episode? My favorite episode of the season is Drum Roll Please, 73 Yards. Mine too. Really. Yeah. So we didn't share these at all between each other. So that's that's funny. What's? Kind of hilarious is that the Doctor really isn't even in that one and we're like, it's our favorite. So why 73 yards? I liked it a lot because I loved seeing Ruby be the hero rather than the victim. Right? Which I think happens a lot to the companion. She got to be the one to save it, although it was sad that she was by herself getting to see her entire journey and how she took the time to realize what she had to do. Even though she lost everyone, she was still selfless enough to sacrifice that and save the world. So I think the sort of horror aspects of it were really well done.

50:39 I loved a lot of the camera angles on this kind of leaning into that genre as well. So All in all, I just thought brought together it was a really great mystery, nice horror, and it was encapsulated within itself. And we saw it now in this episode, how that episode actually really mattered to what was going on. Yeah, I loved it for all of those reasons. I think it was important to have an episode that really showcased not only Millie Gibson's, you know, talent, but showcasing Ruby Sunday in a light that wasn't necessarily had to do with who her mother is. So I like that it separated from that a little bit. Also, I love horror. Anybody that knows me, I love horror. So if we were going to get a horror episode of Doctor Who, it's probably going to be my favorite, especially if it's done right. I just like the music in it.

51:28 Also, hats off to Murray Gold this season killing it. So the music was amazing. It visually looked awesome. I loved the camera tricks that they did in it. I just loved it. I loved the mystery behind it. I loved that it felt like folk horror going into like political thriller. It was just great. Also, the old lady doing this, oh hand movements, she was thacking, she was thacking, she was doing the Macarena. She's doing everything. I love finding out that she didn't know what she's doing. It's just random. She's. Just like ner ner, ner ner ner. It's just her board waiting for her scene to be done. Exactly. All right, so next category, favorite villain, alien creature in that category.

52:12 Go ahead. I know everyone's going to be really surprised with my choice here, but it it just so happens that my favorite villain is Maestro. So we had the opportunity to not just pick villain, but creatures are aliens and Maestro was your pick. Yeah, it was my pick too, but I picked something else because I knew you were going to pick it. Why can't we match? Because I knew we were going to match on the. First one I so honestly I believe the best performance of this season was by Jinx Monsoon as maestro. I think that she brought so much to this role I couldn't get enough of it. I wish that she was in more episodes because that's how good I thought it was spin off.

52:56 The pantheons and it's just Jinx Jinx Monsoon as the main character. Going around trying to figure out what music really means to her. I love that, right? I would watch it. Do I steal it? Do I enjoy it? What is music? OK, so since I knew it was going to be Maestro, I had to I had to had to just say my runner up. It's the slugs from find time, the slugs, the racists eating slugs, those angels coupled with the dots. I just love them. What more is there to say than seeing that beautiful slug when it showed that picture of the home world and the slug just being like racism is dead?

53:39 We did it. We did it, Joe. I loved. It as they said yeah, I agree that was a great bait and switch yes right of thinking Oh my God, they're they're the enemy but really they're doing. Good and not only you know, we should have put like favorite performance on here, but I kind of didn't want to because I knew Jinx would be the Maister would be there somewhere. But I would say like and shooty did a fantastic job this season. I do think Maister really just like chewed the whole thing, but at the end of fine time is probably the Doctor's best performance in this in this whole first series. Just want to put that out there, but thanks, legs. All right, next one favorite Susan Twist appearance.

54:21 Susan Triad, Susan Twist, whatever you want to call it. Sue T Sue T. So my favorite is the ambulance. God damn it, is that yours? Yeah, that's my favorite. To be fair. It's like, what other performance would we pick? Right? I, I guess Susan Triad would be the only other one where we really got to see her. Yeah, just for the the Theresa May dance alone. I think we need to take a moment and just think, what is Russell T Davies trying to say about older women? That they're amazing and capable. Or that they're harbingers of death who can dance. What is he saying? I don't think that, no. That is hilarious. Yeah, the ambulance I think is is a terrifying performance by Susan Twist. It was layered, it was amazing.

55:07 And she just played this AI robot. Loved it. And I feel like that appearance of Susan Twist really kind of solidified where these harbingers were coming from and existing in this place of war and just killing people for any reason. Yeah, the the Angels of Death, as SU Tech called them. That was really the first episode where I was like, Russell T Davies is a liar. It's not just because they didn't have a shortage of extras. She means something. Yeah. Yeah. Fantastic. All right. Second to last, favorite fit specifically. We didn't want to just say the Doctor because there's so many amazing ones in the here, but favorite fit of the entire season. So I did just kind of think of the doctor.

55:48 I was looking at all of his outfits, and I actually have one that isn't that exciting, but it was just my favorite. So I loved his outfit in Space Babies. Interesting. So it's a high waisted blue trouser with a Gray coloured striped zipped jumper that he has very long and he also has a leather trench. And the reason that I like it is that it felt the most classic Who, but updated in the sense that I don't know, whatever I think of Doctor Who, I think of stripes, I think of coats, I think of. Is that the same outfit that he wore in the Goblin episode? No. So the pants are the same, the jacket's the same, but the shirt is different. So that one has vertical stripes, this one has horizontal stripes.

56:34 Now I have it in my head, yeah. And so that was my favorite just because it felt like the most now, but it also, I think, nodded to the past. I agree. Can you guess mine? I'm just curious if you can guess it. They think about me as a person. Can you guess what my favorite outfit and I'll narrow it down. It is the doctor. OK, I think of you as a person. Yeah, I'm looking behind you. Fantastic Four Macabre Prince. Some things tell. I don't know. I feel like his like very. I'm I'm. I'm stuck between the devil's cord outfit. Is that the one you calling? No.

57:15 Or the rogue outfit. Oh, so close. What was it? So I have a tie. I don't know if we can do this. We're making the rules. I don't care. I have a tie. Devil's cord is one just I think it's felt or velvet. It was blue suit. It was amazing fro I just loved it. It was just a sick plain look and also 73 yards the yellow. Trench. That's why I was like, think of me, think of yellow. You know what was funny was that what I did is that I looked through all the images on IMDb for each episode and for some reason, 73 yards, they don't show him a lot. Well, he was in it because he's not in it. Yeah, I just love that outfit. I thought it was so cool.

57:55 I loved the yellow jacket. I love the red beanie. I his boots. I just I would be like that would be an outfit I want to wear. Give me the codes to put in to find that online and I will buy it immediately. Yeah. All right, so last one we have for this season. Favorite non lead character? OK because he told me I couldn't but I do want to mention that my favorite non lead character originally were the slugs from dot and bubble. He said that didn't count so. Because we have favorite villain, alien or creature. I'm just saying it doesn't matter but that they're a creature. They could still be a non leading role. So my favorite non lead character is Mel.

58:38 Oh. I love Mel. I yes, I love her appearance in The Giggle. I love that we're not questioning who she is. She knows what she's doing, she's super personable, she's great. You could see why the Doctor loved her and wanted her along on his adventures. Yeah, I loved it. I also loved how she saw her hair ties because if you look back at what Mel looked like in her original run, she had this big hair, big red hair, and she had these hair ties that was so cute. I love Mel. I did not expect that. So my favorite non lead character is Rogue. Of course it is. Like, of course it is. But also Misses Flood. You know, I feel like everybody needs to keep an eye on Misses Flood.

59:19 But Rogue, What can I say? Jonathan Groff knocked it out of the park. I'm a sucker. We're finally getting like a really true queer moment with the doctor. I want him to go find Rogue. I love the character. I think there's a lot of mystery there. Yeah. Really stood out to me. Yeah. So those are our awards. Let us know. Let us know your your your picks for that one. So before we go, we're just putting this out there or what's to come. What's still out there? What threads are still laying in the time vortex that need to be brought back into the TARDIS? So loose threats. Whose Miss Flood. OK.

1:00:01 What is the deal with the new companion? Because we saw her and boom, at least the actor. Is it going to be Monday or is it going to be a completely different person? Right. Where is Rogue? We need to know that. Why snow and music 'cause there's, you know, the scene with Maestro saying this creature is wrong. There's a hidden song inside of her. It seems separated too much from the mystery with her mother. Like, yes, Carol, the bell is in the snow. I just feel like there is a little more something there that we need answers to. This kind of feeds into that. Yeah, is the boss who the Meep said and also Rogue and kind of Maestro different from the one who waits?

1:00:45 I believe so. Is Missus Flood the boss? Is she also serving this boss? We need to know. Yeah, yeah. And I think the most important question did Cherry get her tea it? Didn't look like. It didn't look like it. Or woman. I will say one of the funny things about After Unit coming back of being detested is that they have pizza, right? They're having a pizza party. Pizza. Party. But I just love the thought of everything coming back and those pizza people working are just like, OK, I guess we have to keep making pizzas. Now back to work I think. The world deserves like a week off. After that, I also just want to point out one thing that we didn't mention, the fact that Morris Gibbons has firearms built into his little Segway of. Course he does.

1:01:33 It was incredible of. Course he does so good. Amazing, yeah. And I also want to see where is Rose going to fit into this, right? We brought her back. She's kind of interning is. Sorry, I have something in my eye. There is a rumoured unit spin off, so that would be nice because that would mean we get to see more Rose. Yeah, maybe possibly pop ups of 14 and Donna. I don't know, but I just love that, you know, Kate Stewart is still trying to recruit people. She tried to recruit Susan Susan right away. And the and the relationship we saw them holding. Hands, I don't know if it's romantic or not. Colonel Handsome, you know, I thought him and Jadosi, you know, he was real upset with Jadosi dying. And he's back, by the way, and he's back. What is he going to think whenever Kate Stewart and Colonel Handsome are together?

1:02:24 They're just holding hands all around unit. All right, well, until probably the Christmas special. We'll talk about Doctor Who again. Yeah, maybe. We'll see. We'll see what's going on. Oh my God. All right, so till next time, I need to get this thing out of my ass. Oh. My gosh, we're, we're, it's, it's bad. We gotta go. We gotta go. It's a bit too much. Goodbye.